Bass Age vs Label - Antique Roadshow Moment

[Ken Smith]

Here is the schocker for you. That label which has #48 on the lower right corner is pictured in a book I have. Jalovec 'German & Austrian makers' on page 81 and on page 276 of his general encyclopedia of makers. This maker died in 1866.



Is that your Bass? The FF is not there.

On the bass on Ebay, the Label is the same, worn, torn and burnt to look old. It too is the exact same label, #48 but the 8 is torn a bit.



This is why I do not believe all labels in instruments to be true. Dealers copy them from books or steal them from other instruments and then put them in something to increase their value or make them easier to sell. That FF looks like a brand new burned in stamp. Not even 150 years of dirt clogging the letters. Suspicious?

[Ken Smith]

By the way, here is what an actual old label from that period would look like. Don't be so easily fooled. When the bass looks half the age of the label, it probably is!

This bass was heavily used professionally until just recently and has 5 different repair labels. Two of them from the 19th century and 3 of them from the early 20th century. Being repaired over and over again wears even the label, especially if they are moved for repairs and then replaced. The 2 old ones shown look to be on old Vellum, not paper from pulp.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Here is the schocker for you. That label which has #48 on the lower right corner is pictured in a book I have. Jalovec 'German & Austrian makers' on page 81 and on page 276 of his general encyclopedia of makers. This maker died in 1866.
[...]
On the bass on Ebay, the Label is the same, worn, torn and burnt to look old. It too is the exact same label, #48 but the 8 is torn a bit.

FWIW the first label looks to me to be #43 not #48 which would make the second label, if #48 (hard to tell), consistent with the one year later 1865.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

FWIW the first label looks to me to be #43 not #48 which would make the second label, if #48 (hard to tell), consistent with the one year later 1865.

The actual label in the book is not dated, only numbered. Not all makers dated their labels. It looks obvious that both labels have been doctored up or lost a bit when they were copied from the book.

If #48 is 1864, then why would #43 be 1865? I am sure they are both #48, copied from the same book. Both faked duped labels. Neither bass has any relation to those labels, but century or country.

The Jalovec Books came out around 1960 or so. The basses might or might not be older.

[Dave Irwin]

Ken, the 48 is the house number at the end of the address line. I saw the label in a book as well. Maybe the same book. I think it was printed in the 20's or 30's.
I see what you mean about the brand. Looks like I'm busted. Oh well, I paid 20th century $ for it so it's ok. The ebay bass better not be authentic. At $4,600, that would really suck.
I had contact with a player in the Austrian Philharmonic and he said his teacher had a Feilnreiter. I couldn't get any pics though.

BTW, what was the period when basses typically got the raised trim/strips on the sides?

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

The actual label in the book is not dated, only numbered. Not all makers dated their labels. It looks obvious that both labels have been doctored up or lost a bit when they were copied from the book.

If #48 is 1864, then why would #43 be 1865? I am sure they are both #48, copied from the same book. Both faked duped labels. Neither bass has any relation to those labels, but century or country.

The Jalovec Books came out around 1960 or so. The basses might or might not be older.

[Matthew Tucker]

Peter Bockius (germany) plays one perhaps he has photos?

[Dave Irwin]

So I can't explain the brands not being in your photo Ken. But check out the markings/stains around the top of the label. They appear to me to match!
Note the 3 spots to the right of the "cleat?" I dunno my inerds...
And the "L" facing down on the right.


@Matt, I emailed him. We'll see if he responds with a pic!

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Dave Irwin

So I can't explain the brands not being in your photo Ken. But check out the markings/stains around the top of the label. They appear to me to match!
Note the 3 spots to the right of the "cleat?" I dunno my inerds...
And the "L" facing down on the right.


@Matt, I emailed him. We'll see if he responds with a pic!
Attachment 2472

Those are not from my Book. They are from an Ebay ad and your pics. One is recent on TB, one older and one Ebay. You posted the same one twice, two different exposures of the same shot.

Outside linings on German basses must be at least 200 years old or so. I have also seen them on English and Italian basses from the turn of the 18/19th century and before. I think they both took it from the Germans. Just my guess. Not all German or Czech basses had linings in the same period. It depends on the maker and design. Some makers have made basses both ways, with and without the outer linings over time. It's just a style.

Not all old basses have a high value or sound good either. They were making tons of string instruments in the 19-20th centuries and some, only some were hand made. The rest made in factories or parts assembled in shops made by other families and outworkers. It was the trade then to do so. There were 18th century factories as well from what I have read. Supply and demand = industry.

There are many basses from the German, Austrian and Czech schools that were made for export, students, schools and lower income people over time. I have seen beautiful handmade basses as well as cheap looking boxes with strings made just to have a sound and shape like a bass from the same areas. This is true with all string instruments. Just like today, not everyone can afford a bass in the $50-200k range. The majority of bass sales are probably under 5-10k, many even lower today. About 50 years ago, low end basses were $100-$200. I think they have gone way up, pushed by the economy of the lowest cost decent Asian bass so if it's good and older European, it should cost more.

If you like your bass and it's early 20th century instead of late 19th century, it can have the same value. Maybe that Ebay bass was as labeled (as I doubt) and maybe it needed 5k of work or maybe it had no sound.

I have had 3 old simple made Czech basses in the last 2 years here, 80-120 years old, estimated. They varied in sound and sold at different prices, two of them. The 3rd is still here awaiting repairs. They sell for their sound and condition. If the sound is not there, the price is lower. If it needs work, the price is lower. If it sounds good and needs no major work, the price is higher. There was no pedigree with either of these basses. They were/are priced fairly for their worth.