History of the American Bass

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jeff Bollbach

Great job, Ken. A thought occurred to me-I remember that David Bromberg had a keen interest in Yankee instruments. Was wondering if you had ever crossed paths with him in that regard?

The Banjo guy? No, never met him. All I have to offer at the moment is the Batchelder Bass but enjoy talking about it.

On another note, over at TB, they have this thread about a restored Prescott by Lou DiLeone. It is NOT in no way a Prescott and either is Jason's Bass that he says looks like Lou's.
Everything in a Violin made near Cremona is a Strad..NOT..
Every old Bass from Milano is a Testore..NOT..
Every 19th century Bass from New England is a Prescott..NOT..

What is so hard about that. Even dealers can't get that straight. It's a shame when you look at it. There were many good Yankee Bass makers from the 19th century and we know that now. Why still is everything a Prescott?

[Brian Glassman]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

The Banjo guy? No, never met him. All I have to offer at the moment is the Batchelder Bass but enjoy talking about it.

On another note, over at TB, they have this thread about a restored Prescott by Lou DiLeone. It is NOT in no way a Prescott and either is Jason's Bass that he says looks like Lou's.
Everything in a Violin made near Cremona is a Strad..NOT..
Every old Bass from Milano is a Testore..NOT..
Every 19th century Bass from New England is a Prescott..NOT..

What is so hard about that. Even dealers can't get that straight. It's a shame when you look at it. There were many good Yankee Bass makers from the 19th century and we know that now. Why still is everything a Prescott?

Yeah, when I look at the restored bass by Lou DiLeone the shape of the lower bouts AND the 'f's don't exactly scream Prescott to me either.

BG

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Brian Glassman

Yeah, when I look at the retored bass by Lou DiLeone the shape of the lower bouts AND the 'f's don't exactly scream Prescott to me either.

BG

To me, it's not so much the shape as it is the FF cuts and Scroll. Like Jeff Bollbach has preached to me, each person makes a curve his own way. In the case with hand made instruments, you can see if it's the same guy or not. With shop or production instruments, you cannot. In the case of Prescott having his own design with several workers over a 30 year period making Basses in two cities and at least 4 shops, you will see variation but not one that looks like a completely different maker or style. I have seen only two FF patterns used on Prescott Basses and only one Scroll design. The measurements vary from period to period but the 'idea' does not. With the FFs, only a few of the full sized Cello model Basses have that sweeping 'S' design as seen in his earlier Cellos (Church Basses). According to the records I have I don't see that he made that many Double Basses prior 1829 or in his first decade of making them. Mainly what we see are the Church Basses. After the move to Concord and the expansion of the shop, we see even the Cellos (Church Basses) using the short wide FFs that are on almost 98% of the Basses he made. When you see an old Yankee Bass and the FFs are not Prescott, that's usually a 'smoking gun' right there. Many old Basses have had their Necks/Scrolls replaced as until recent years, not everyone considered an original Bass Scroll of value or worth saving with a grafted neck. I understand Prescott farmed out his Scroll work at some point. This would mean that each time the model was made for duplicating, slight variations could occur as they could with final sanding and hand shaping. My Prescott (now sold) had a beautiful Scroll with soft lines. Some are more box-like in their finished state but some not. In either case, you can always tell it's a Prescott. Similar looking long Scrolls with extra turns or similar pegbox lines are just 'Prescott School' model Basses.

I bet that if my Batchelder did not have a label, it would be called a Prescott by just about any of the Dealers currently throwing his name around casually as we have seen to date. For lack of a better name, it is easier to call anything close to Prescott a Prescott. The only problem is that it's not close to my eye having studied his Basses over the last few years mainly for personal interest. So far, two Basses called Prescott and owned by famous players are just not a Prescott to me eye.

[Don Carrigan]

DATING PRESCOTTS:
We know that in 1822 Abraham Prescott travelled (by c**** & Hudson?) to the annual "Mechanics Exhibit" to show of his new DOUBLE BASS. He built his FIRST DOUBLE BASS IN 1819. Then one a year until 1822. The newspapers in New York made a fool of him, saying his double bass was 'UNPLAYABLE' because the shoulders were rediculously wide! He had "projected" the measurements directly from 'cello measurements!
With his tail between his legs he quickly beat a path back to Dearfield, N.H. and instantly cut down (narrowed) the shoulders of every bass in his shop and perhaps others he might contact. Remember, these basses were sold to accompany choirs. One didn't have to play like Koussavitsky to play roots and fifths on a 3 string bass.
But dating his DOUBLE basses is easy for examples PIROR to 1824. He, himself, carved his earliest scrolls from soft sycamore wood with an open back string box and "teeth marks" at bottom rear. Here's my 1820 Prescott Busetto (now 5 string neck) showing pre 1823 carving: http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottv...StrBoxRear.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottv...5StrScroll.jpg
In addition, Prescott's earliest basses sported FF holes ONE INCH WIDE!!! and, if you include the triangular notches, ONE INCH AND A QUARTER WIDE!!! The largest FF holes what am, ever. He only made a few of the provable early basses.
http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottv...06Prescott.jpg
By 1830, increasing business demanded that Prescott hire apprentices, some of whom quickly changed designs to personal tastes. Many later walked away to start their own shops, especially after two shop fires.
Prescott numbers may be misleading inasmuch as he simply numbered instruments consequtively, whether 'cellos, church basses, double basses and even one or two violas and a single violin. We have to guess.
See my photos and data at http://home.earthlink.net/~prescott
Front: http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottv...5strgFRONT.jpg
Angle: http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottv...strgANGLED.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottv...SCROLLSIDE.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottv...TTdonSMALL.jpg

[Ken Smith]

It's getting harder to maintain this List of Purported Prescott Bass Locations, but here's my latest data. Click here below:

http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottviol/data/LOCATIONSPrescott07APRIL5.txt


I let Don know that my c.1820 Prez is now in the Columbus Symphony but I still have the Prescott School/relative Batchelder Bass.

[Martin Sheridan]

[quote=Ken Smith;258]The Banjo guy? No, never met him. All I have to offer at the moment is the Batchelder Bass but enjoy talking about it.

Ken,
David Bromberg is probably the formost authority on American Violin makers and probably possesses the largest collection. Back in the 60s he was on many popular albums as a back up player; guitar and sometimes fiddle. He later attended and graduated from the Chicago School of Violin Making. He used to come into my shop fairly often when I was in downtown Chicago. He was traveling all over the world then buying and selling instruments and bows. Last I heard he had opened a violin shop in the east.
Great Thread!

[Ken Smith]

[quote=Martin Sheridan;16703]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

The Banjo guy? No, never met him. All I have to offer at the moment is the Batchelder Bass but enjoy talking about it.

Ken,
David Bromberg is probably the foremost authority on American Violin makers and probably possesses the largest collection. Back in the 60s he was on many popular albums as a back up player; guitar and sometimes fiddle. He later attended and graduated from the Chicago School of Violin Making. He used to come into my shop fairly often when I was in downtown Chicago. He was traveling all over the world then buying and selling instruments and bows. Last I heard he had opened a violin shop in the east.
Great Thread!

But, does this guy have 'anything' at all to do with Basses? I have never heard his name mentioned associated with a single bass, ever.

Most of the American makers that made basses made basses. A few made mainly Violins and some basses. The Wenberg book has about the most published on American makers than all the English and European books combined. Stil, I find some makers missing like the actual Batchelder that made my old bass.

As with any book, if they made mainly basses, they might be left out of books when written as the names are not known about to them.

Boston's mid 19th century Asa and Jay White made both as did the elder August and George Gemunder did in Springfield Mass. before moving to New York.

[Martin Sheridan]

Not as far as I know. He was interested in my basses in a general way, but he's really a violin collector.

Thanks for bringing so much information together on the American makers, there's a real hole in the knowledge about bass makers generally.

The VSA Journal had an article on some Germans who made basses in Pennsylvania some years back. The black bass above attributed to Prescott looks very similar to their work.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

Not as far as I know. He was interested in my basses in a general way, but he's really a violin collector.

Thanks for bringing so much information together on the American makers, there's a real hole in the knowledge about bass makers generally.

The VSA Journal had an article on some Germans who made basses in Pennsylvania some years back. The black bass above attributed to Prescott looks very similar to their work.

Well, it is believed that the Prescott design is generally German taken from I believe a Hornsteiner or something similar. There were many Germans and English settlers in New England that made Violin family instruments. Mostly Violins and Basses. I have heard of and seen very few if any Violas or Cellos from this period. Cellos in the way of Church Basses yes but standard measured Violincellos we see hardly any from the 19th century Yankee makers. The Violins are all basically European in design. The Basses however have their own Yankee flair. I must exclude the first generation Gemunder brothers that came over made what they knew from France and maybe Germany. George Gemunder of the 2 Basses I have seen are totally French in design and Varnish as he came over here straight from Vuillaume's shop. His older Brother August however of the 2 Basses I know of his (one of which I own) are closer to a Gagliano if anything. Long body with flatback but shorter FFs that you would see on a Neapolitan bass. I am guessing he may have seen one as an example but made smaller FFs for tone and design preference. This Bass looks so Italian I could re-label it and no one would question the provenance.

It is also believer than Prescott used an only English Viol for his long Scroll/pegbox design. His basses were all originally 3-string from what I have seen and the heads can easily take 5 or even 6 tuners in them.

I guess this is what you get generally when makers partly copy and partly think on their own. The first time I saw the G. Gemunder bass I asked if it was an old Bernardel! The first time I saw the G.Gemunder I thought it was Gagliano school bass. The later made NY Gemunder Basses look mainly German to me, imported from there and finished up over here. Without the Label they are German shop basses for the most part. If they were made here then there was no originality at all in the design as they are perfect models of the German basses from the end of the 19th to the early 20th century.

Well anyway, the more you see, the more you know. Thus is the case as long as what you compare them to are correctly known models/makers as well.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

I have read that Klotz' designs were the basis for Prescott, not Hornsteiner's.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

I have read that Klotz' designs were the basis for Prescott, not Hornsteiner's.

Yes, I have read that too but the last time I saw a Klotz bass it was actually an old Hornsteiner to my eye. And, which Klotz? Klotz was a famous family and the founding family of the Mittenwald school. Why not name all old Mittenwald basses Klotz? I don't know which are real Klotz's, Neuners or Hornsteiners. They all look alike to me.

Hey, I would love to see a REAL Confirmed Mathius Klotz Double Bass. The last tine I saw something that looked like a M. Klotz, it had a famous Italian name.