What have we got?

[Thomas Barnwell]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Ok, first, what is a 48 3/4 and 46 1/4? Couldn't understand that.

Thanks -- that is exactly the kind of information we were looking for. The line above should have read

1948 3/4 Kay bass and 1946 1/4 Kay bass.

Thanks again,

-Tom

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Thomas Barnwell

Thanks -- that is exactly the kind of information we were looking for. The line above should have read

1948 3/4 Kay bass and 1946 1/4 Kay bass.

Thanks again,

-Tom

Don't play that bass outdoors. It will get ruined easily. It i a real bass made to be played in a Symphony hall. I had a couple up to my shop a year ago and traded one of these kinds of basses for an old Kay that someone was trying to unload. I paid them the difference and bought the Kay to trade in the deal. They came up from the south as well.

That bass, considered to be a Morelli brand full sized orchestra bass was sold to a dealer and then fitted up for a Symphony player. That's where these kinds of basses belong.

Regardless of the intended brand, shop, maker or size of the bass, this is a carved bass that is sensitive to weather and humidity changes. Unlike your Kay basses that can be tossed around, the more you damage the original finish, the wood, edges or what have you, you will be decreasing its value each step of the way. Repairs have to done only by a qualified Violin trained Bass Luthier. If done poorly, re-repairing is 2-3x the cost to un-do and re-do and each time, loosing value as well if these repairs are visible.

Call me if you want to sell the bass and get something more suitable for the venue you would use a bass in. In the mean time, be careful not to slap the bass or scratch the original varnish off in any way. Do not do tricks with this bass or attempt to stand on it either.

[Ken Smith]

I can't post there. I was banned for telling the truth and telling off the Mod that tried to silence me.

This bass of yours and many others attributed to Paul Toenniges were actually made by Wenzle Wilfer in Germany. Imported by Paul Toenniges and re-worked by him.

How do I know? I have here a bass with a WBW/Wenzle B. Wilfer labeled "made for Paul Toenniges" and is being sold as a Paul Toenniges/Wilfer bass. This is a full sized bass but Wilfer is one of the makers that supplied basses like yours.

Some were sold to and labeled in NYC as Juzek, some as Vitale Imports and any other shop that bought basses as no one supplier could buy all that a shop could produce or with their affiliated surrounding shops.

The people on TB are miss informed much of the time. An ounce of knowledge can turn into a mountain of crap in a minute. Paul Wurburton is a friend of mine and loved the work of Paul Toenniges but also, like many other bass brads he and others lover, they didn't know the 'business' of these basses. makers, shops or brands. I studied them a little deeper with the help of 50 years of experience and now with the internet.

You are welcome to say what I said and mention my name on TB. I know what I know. If you come here with that bass, I can show you the one that Wilfer made for Paul Toenniges. I have owned many basses from several of the Wilfer family, Hofner, Framus and B.Lang I and II. Seeing is believing they say and I have seen and examined a lot of them. There are still many other ghost makers out there from the past that when you see the name as different from what you first believed, your mind takes a twist inside thinking that you didn't know it all or, was this another just seller of basses made by another.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave When first we practice to deceive!" .

lol.. but true.

[Thomas Barnwell]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Don't play that bass outdoors. It will get ruined easily. It i a real bass made to be played in a Symphony hall. I had a couple up to my shop a year ago and traded one of these kinds of basses for an old Kay that someone was trying to unload. I paid them the difference and bought the Kay to trade in the deal. They came up from the south as well.

That bass, considered to be a Morelli brand full sized orchestra bass was sold to a dealer and then fitted up for a Symphony player. That's where these kinds of basses belong.

Regardless of the intended brand, shop, maker or size of the bass, this is a carved bass that is sensitive to weather and humidity changes. Unlike your Kay basses that can be tossed around, the more you damage the original finish, the wood, edges or what have you, you will be decreasing its value each step of the way. Repairs have to done only by a qualified Violin trained Bass Luthier. If done poorly, re-repairing is 2-3x the cost to un-do and re-do and each time, loosing value as well if these repairs are visible.

Call me if you want to sell the bass and get something more suitable for the venue you would use a bass in. In the mean time, be careful not to slap the bass or scratch the original varnish off in any way. Do not do tricks with this bass or attempt to stand on it either.

Perhaps I should tell you a bit more about myself. I spent my life as a university acoustics researcher -- my Ph.D. is from MIT and when I retired I was a chaired professor at Georgia Tech.

My wife and I have collected and studied vintage American acoustic instruments for 40+ years -- we have a couple of hundred. If this turned out to be a $10K instruments as some have suggested (not me), it would be one of the least valuable instruments we own -- we have several that are ten times that much. All of our living spaces are totally temperature and humidity controlled, and our transport (truck) and travel (RV) vehicles are too. Our RV has a separate externally accessible compartment just for the transport and protection of our instruments. All the things you say about that bass are also true in spades for our old, high end guitars, mandolins, and mandocellos -- which are much more valuable.

We do all this so they can be used -- when conditions allow -- to make music where the music is made. We know everyone has passion for their own musical genres, but ours essentially never occurs in symphony halls. To each his own.

I am always interested in what people have to say, and I appreciate your input. But I am really trying to research the history of the instrument -- can you give me something more there?

Thanks again,

-Tom

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Thomas Barnwell

I am always interested in what people have to say, and I appreciate your input. But I am really trying to research the history of the instrument -- can you give me something more there?

Thanks again,

-Tom

I would put this at Post War Germany, Beubenreuth (Bavaria) by possibly Wenzle Wilfer or similar shop. Also, Josef? Saumer made similar instruments in East Germany post war that are branded Saumer Morelli in the upper back BUT, not with that purfled design. Benedict Lang I in Shoenbach in the first half of the 20th century made basses like this but your bass is not that old. His son or Nephew Benedict Lang II in Mittenwald made similar basses too.

The safe bet I think would be Wenzle Wilfer c.1950-1970. If I get the chance to see the bass in person, maybe I would know more, or maybe not.

This is my old W.Wilfer with the same tuners as well. I sold it in 1974 or so to this guy. I recorded with the Glenn Miller band with it and he toured with Liza Minnelli with it. https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...b0&oe=590F300D

The Tuners are probably Rubners and I have some on my 1980 Pollmann as well that have a screw in the center so same maker of basses, 1970/1980 and same gears but a decade apart.

[Thomas Barnwell]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I would put this at Post War Germany, Beubenreuth (Bavaria) by possibly Wenzle Wilfer or similar shop. Also, Josef? Saumer made similar instruments in East Germany post war that are branded Saumer Morelli in the upper back BUT, not with that purfled design. Benedict Lang I in Shoenbach in the first half of the 20th century made basses like this but your bass is not that old. His son or Nephew Benedict Lang II in Mittenwald made similar basses too.

The safe bet I think would be Wenzle Wilfer c.1950-1970. If I get the chance to see the bass in person, maybe I would know more, or maybe not.

This is my old W.Wilfer with the same tuners as well. I sold it in 1974 or so to this guy. I recorded with the Glenn Miller band with it and he toured with Liza Minnelli with it. https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...b0&oe=590F300D

The Tuners are probably Rubners and I have some on my 1980 Pollmann as well that have a screw in the center so same maker of basses, 1970/1980 and same gears but a decade apart.

Wow, that is great! Thanks you so much!

Best,

-Tom