Upton Basses

[Sam Sherry]

I've watched this thread with interest as it involves so many people I respect.

UPTON BASS:

It's no secret that I'm Gary Upton's pal. I'm also his lawyer (which doesn't matter here. I'm just noting it as "full disclosure." I'm not trying to intimidate anybody. If you feel intimidated by this post you need a better social life.)

Gary's been a real friend and has gone out of his way repeatedly to treat me well. He has treated the people I've referred to him well. One of the things that I most like about Gary is that, like Ken Smith, he's a guy with a healthy dose of ambition about his business. That is a compliment in my eyes and is meant for both of them.

As far as I know, there are several factories in Romania. I don't know which factory builds for Upton and I sure as heck don't know who builds for JR/Ken/lots of others. I don't know that it's the same and I don't know that it's different. Don't assume that Gary's stuff is the same as Ken's, JR's and vice versa even if you discover that it comes from the same factory. If you're buying a bass, do research. Compare. Try to play the bass you're buying if possible. Just because people say it all the time doesn't mean it ain't true.

Rumor has it that there are people who don't like Gary as much as I do. So be it. The same is true of me and just about everybody else I've ever met (with the exception of Paul Warburton). I take it all with a grain of salt. You don't have to. It's the web. Do your research. Form your own conclusions. Be open to change.

TALKBASS.COM

It's also no secret that I used to be a moderator on TB/DB and that one of the main reasons I stopped was dis-satisfaction with the commercial posting policy and commercial activity on the site generally. You can make of that what you will. Chris FitzGerald continues to impress me as a person and as a musician.

My general observation about the site is that things do go in cycles. People come; people learn; people go. Sometimes they fade out and sometimes they leave with a bang. Whatever.

One of the things I REALLY LIKE about Ken's site is that there's a strong chance that people are accurately identified by name. I am a big supporter of the notion that the accuracy and value of online advice is increased when people don't hide behind aliases. Bravo to Ken for doing it right. Bravo to Ken for being upfront about what he thinks and above all for formulating his opinions based on personal experience.

One of the things I don't like about this thread is that I think it's not classy to talk down about another forum. That's my opinion and y'all are free to do whatchya want. As for me, I'm gonna practice . . . .

[Ken Smith]

Very well spoken Sam. I liked and agreed with everything you just said. You are a true Diplomat with often with some 'realism' in your tone.

I DO NOT want to turn this into a bashing either so I say it now; Speak your piece or hold onto it, which ever suits you best BUT don't bash TB or UPTON here.. Please! Discussions are fine about how each person sees things but TB IS the main Worldwide Bass Forum regardless of who agrees.

Maybe the business of TB and Upton has been one sided but that is Paul's house and he can invite whom ever he wants over for dinner and drinks.

On another note in emailing back and forth with Paul during my departure, Paul offered me his help in any way with the 'vBulletin' software if the need ever came. That was a very nice gesture and generous as well especially in the spirit or which I left TB in or lack thereof.

As Sam mentioned, this is a good venue being we use real names here and sets in place a level of Class in the Themes and Conversations. Let's not ruin this by turning it into a verbal brawl against TB or Upton.

On another note, I feel relieved that Sam, Upton's lawyer didn't go legal here.. Wheww.. another narrow escape..

Thank's Sam, you are always welcome here..

[Michael Case]

As always Sam, spoken like a true gentleman.

This forum inspired me to use my real name over at TB. It really does affect the way you post when your real name is behind it.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Very well stated.
People are people and we are flawed in some way or another. While I think it may be reasonable to acknowledge shortcomings or to criticize someones behavior, it should never be done without the admission that we all fall short of the ideal. Ken excepted.

Gotta get ready for my first gig tonight with one of the top Big Bands in town. These guys play some of the hardest *&%^ imaginable including several Maynard Ferguson charts; and that's some of the easier material.
Wish me luck so I don't flame out.

[Michael Case]

Good luck on your gig. Sounds like it'll be a blast, literally.

[Jeff Gellis]

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

I One of the things that I most like about Gary is that, like Ken Smith, he's a guy with a healthy dose of ambition about his business. That is a compliment in my eyes and is meant for both of them.

I echo this sentiment and applaud anybody with enough drive to get out bed in the morning and try and make a go of the business world and find time to make music as well.
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Competition is a good thing and we all benefit from it. We benefit by the exchange of info, the constant pushing the envelope to improve available products and, I know you will agree when I say, we are also entertained by the spectical of it all as evidenced by this thread and this forum.

Greg- how was the gig?

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

The gig was the most fun I've had in a long time, but kinda in a high pressure situation. I read two full sets of charts I had never seen before ; a couple being five pagers at about 250bpm. The best part was when the leader called a tune and counted off a tempo by snapping his fingers. As one of the trombone guys said, "that's kind of slow", the 1st trumpet guy yelled out, "dude, that's not quarter notes, but full bars"!

A big part of improving as a musician is playing with other musicians that make us sweat a little. To be challenged by guys who are fun to be with makes it a whole lot easier.

One final thought: Isn't it really all about the music? This 'inside baseball' stuff is just a sideshow IMO. We can all come together and enjoy playing bass.

[Corey DiMario]

First of all let me say that I'm new here in this forum and have spent the past few days reading through as many of the threads as possible. It's a great site with many knowledgeable and generous bassists and luthiers offering up their services for all to read. I look forward to interacting and learning while being here.

I will say that I am kind of shocked to learn about all of the feuds and animosity between folks here and over at TBDB. I don't know the whole story, and quite frankly, i don't care. I'm here to learn and to interact with my fellow bassists and I'm staying out of that stuff.

Anyway, not to beat a dead horse or bring up any bad feelings, but I thought I'd give my opinion, for what it's worth, on the whole affordable plywood and hybrid basses out there today subject. Whether it's a New Standard, one of the fine looking Romanian or Chinese basses Ken Smith has to offer, an Upton or any other cheap (5K and under) bass, the choices today for bass players in this market are staggering. The quality, sound and playability of all of these basses, from what I have both seen in person and read about is so much higher than what I had to start out with when I was first learning. When I was first starting, there just weren't these kinds of options, at least that I was aware of. You simply went with whatever the local shop had to offer in your price range, which is more like settling for a poorly set up piece of junk than choosing an instrument. We should all be glad that aspiring bassists can so easily get their hands on a well setup, decent sounding, entry level bass to start learning. Bravo to all of the fine luthiers and shops doing their best to get good basses into the hands of players!

For full disclosure, I own an Upton Hawkes Laminate and for what it is, it's great and I've been very pleased with it. It's my main axe on the road and does the job wonderfully for the kind of music I play. Would I take it to audition for the symphony? Probably not. I don't think anyone is suggesting that. I was in the market for a plywood bass for the road and I checked out a bunch of basses and in my price range and within a reasonable drive form where I live, it was the best option for me. I personally wouldn't buy a bass sight unseen and have it shipped, but I'm also lucky to be on the east coast, a short drive from some great shops. Upton is not the only choice and as you say, Ken, the New Standards are a "different breed" but that comes with a price, and I wasn't in the market to drop 5K at the time. I was in the market to spend 2K and the Upton was the one I liked best after playing a bunch of basses.

One thing that used to bother me personally over on TB was all this excitement and bragging about these great plywood and Hybrid Basses with Upton included in the mix. I rarely got a fraction of the excitement introducing a Dodd, Gilkes, Prescott or other great REAL handmade classic of what we saw when the new Home Depot Hybrid hit the store shelves.

In regards to this comment, I think it only makes sense that these low cost plys and hybrids attract so much attention. Most players, myself included, can only dream of getting a chance to play on, let alone own a master quality bass like the ones you own and sell, Ken. You are clearly a perfectionist and connoisseur and the world needs people with your experience, knowledge and skill both as a player and as a luthier and shop owner. However, the truth is that you are passionate about a class of bass that only really affects a small fraction of the bassist out there. What am I going to say about those basses that you or others with a knowledge base and experience to match yours haven't already said? Most of us simply drool over the pictures, read what you have to say about the basses to learn a bit and move on. You are driving and selling Ferraris and most of us are in the market for an affordable and reliable Honda.

Now, with low cost, instruments, a lot more people have played them and even if they haven't, people feel more comfortable joining the conversation without feeling dumb or inferior. That's what these forums are for, right? to get everyone talking and offering up opinions so we can all learn more.
Plus, it's fun to be excited about an instrument that one actually has a chance of owning.

Anyway, just my two cents. Glad to be here.

Corey

[Ken Smith]

Only your 2 cents? Gee, I would duck if it were a dollar's worth..lol

Yes, I do have a passion for these great Basses and I understand the lack of contribution and the reasons why.

With that said, I brought in some Hybrid and Plywood Romanian Basses for the local market here, sold out of them and am just now re-stocking.

When I was starting out the Plywood Juzek at Juzek/Metropolitan in NY was $150. A used older German carved or flat Back 50-100 years old was about $100-$200 depending. The Juzek carved Basses stated at $200. In my early days we had some Basses as well but not the selection we have today.

As far as any of the feuds you referred to above yes, it's just no healthy to go into it in detail. Some of it is business and some of it is personal so we can just move on and let it rest.

There are more Bass players today I think than ever before. Lower cost Basses allow more semi-interested players to get involved in the 'sport' than they could before if the Basses were the same and inflated to todays economy.

Fair competition is always healthy for business all around. I say Fair with a capitol 'F'. The Guitar business has a much bigger problem with this than the DB field any day of the week.

Thank's for posting. Good conversation is always healthy, or visa versa..

[Corey DiMario]

thanks for responding, Ken. It's interesting to have a sense of the prices on juzeks and other basses "back in the day."

Next time I'm down your way and have a few minutes to spare I'd love to drop by the shop and see first hand some of the instruments you have there.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Corey DiMario

it's fun to be excited about an instrument that one actually has a chance of owning.

Right on Corey

[David Powell]

Well, I wasn't going to open this one back up, but at an open mic about a week ago, I finally saw, heard, and played a fellow player's Upton Hybrid. Those don't get down here to Atlanta too often and it is easy to see why. In all honesty, I can't say there was anything special at all about that bass. Both bass shops here that I visit regularly have basses that will blow the Upton off the map for about the same $$. It wasn't a bad bass, it just wasn't any better than the average bass that shows up there. That would include several all laminated basses as well as some Christopher hybrids (which IMO, all sounded far better), a hybrid Eastman (quite similar to the Upton in a lot of ways by sound but just looks better built), a plywood Johannes Kohr (sp?) that actually shouldn't sound nearly as good as it does. The really good sounding basses I've heard at that club were either older carved German basses or carved Hungarian basses.

I think if someone (Michael Case for example) has a Strunal, he might already be ahead quality wise. The owner of this particular Upton bass (it was the bigger shouldered hybrid one, not the Hawkes, and about a year old) was not that thrilled with it either and was already looking for upgrades. That fellow was a really good player, IMO.

I'm not saying the Upton is a bad bass, it just comes no where close to living up to the TB hype. The fellow running the open mic (a very accomplished bassist in his own right) told me he has seen / heard / played 3 or 4 of them and he wasn't too impressed at all.

As far as the "finished to the customer's choice" option;- take the factory finish on the Gliga whatever that is or the upgraded Wulter finish. I had my nuclear nitrocellose (Ken's favorite cheap finish ) Kremona there to compare and I'd prefer that any day to whatever was on the Upton. There were quite a few bassists at that particular jazz open mic and it is heavily attended by Georgia State College jazz program musicians. From what I could tell among those that tried both basses (understand I did my own set-up on the Kremona;- no adjusters and low string height) there was a rather distinct and unanimous preference for the Kremona as well as a rather mistaken perception that it was a "very expensive" carved bass. There aren't many Kremonas in Atlanta either, but I think there might be a few more soon. Guesses on the Kremona price from other bassists were starting at 3x what I paid for it and going up when I said, "no that's not what it cost..."

I've got no personal or business interest in pushing Kremona, Christopher, or any make of bass;- just happy to have a Kremona and apparently some others would be happy to have it too. I've just heard enough of this "I've heard them side by side and you haven't" bull over at TB that works up until I finally do hear them side by side. What a joke!

OK, so all that said, I'm going to the woodshed so someday I might be worthy of something like Bollbach's Palotta.....

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by David Powell

Well, I wasn't going to open this one back up, but at an open mic about a week ago, I finally saw, heard, and played a fellow player's Upton Hybrid. Those don't get down here to Atlanta too often and it is easy to see why. In all honesty, I can't say there was anything special at all about that bass. Both bass shops here that I visit regularly have basses that will blow the Upton off the map for about the same $$. It wasn't a bad bass, it just wasn't any better than the average bass that shows up there. That would include several all laminated basses as well as some Christopher hybrids (which IMO, all sounded far better), a hybrid Eastman (quite similar to the Upton in a lot of ways by sound but just looks better built), a plywood Johannes Kohr (sp?) that actually shouldn't sound nearly as good as it does. The really good sounding basses I've heard at that club were either older carved German basses or carved Hungarian basses.

I think if someone (Michael Case for example) has a Strunal, he might already be ahead quality wise. The owner of this particular Upton bass (it was the bigger shouldered hybrid one, not the Hawkes, and about a year old) was not that thrilled with it either and was already looking for upgrades. That fellow was a really good player, IMO.

I'm not saying the Upton is a bad bass, it just comes no where close to living up to the TB hype. The fellow running the open mic (a very accomplished bassist in his own right) told me he has seen / heard / played 3 or 4 of them and he wasn't too impressed at all.

As far as the "finished to the customer's choice" option;- take the factory finish on the Gliga whatever that is or the upgraded Wulter finish. I had my nuclear nitrocellose (Ken's favorite cheap finish ) Kremona there to compare and I'd prefer that any day to whatever was on the Upton. There were quite a few bassists at that particular jazz open mic and it is heavily attended by Georgia State College jazz program musicians. From what I could tell among those that tried both basses (understand I did my own set-up on the Kremona;- no adjusters and low string height) there was a rather distinct and unanimous preference for the Kremona as well as a rather mistaken perception that it was a "very expensive" carved bass. There aren't many Kremonas in Atlanta either, but I think there might be a few more soon. Guesses on the Kremona price from other bassists were starting at 3x what I paid for it and going up when I said, "no that's not what it cost..."

I've got no personal or business interest in pushing Kremona, Christopher, or any make of bass;- just happy to have a Kremona and apparently some others would be happy to have it too. I've just heard enough of this "I've heard them side by side and you haven't" bull over at TB that works up until I finally do hear them side by side. What a joke!

OK, so all that said, I'm going to the woodshed so someday I might be worthy of something like Bollbach's Palotta.....

Hey, how did I get dragged back into this thing..lol

I just got in a Hybrid Panormo (made by Gliga) but with the Wultur German Spirit Varnish and not the standard Gliga Lacquer. The Laq. finish I allow only on the Plywood models here. I set it up yesterday morning and it was sold by lunch time. I guess in that price range ($2,750 or $2,800 with cover) I will have to bring more of these in.

It sounded different than the last one I got in but still sounded good. The teacher of the first customer who got one from me was surprised how good a Bass it was for the money. Yes, there are many good low end Basses available today.