Bowing guidelines (reprise)

[stan haskins]

Originally Posted by Nick Hart

The shoeshine stroke is pretty standard in the famous passage in the 4th movement of Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique, while hooking is usually a standard in Mozart symphonies

Good reply, thanks Nick.

What's a shoeshine stroke?

When you said "pickups generally start with up bows" I agree with you. What about long slurred phrases that start halfway through a bar? (I'm thinking specifically of the quarter note theme that happens over and over again in Brahms' Tragic Overture - the phrases start on beat 4 and slur through an entire measure, ending after beat one in the next measure. To me, that screams "upbow")

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by stan haskins

Good reply, thanks Nick.

What's a shoeshine stroke?

When you said "pickups generally start with up bows" I agree with you. What about long slurred phrases that start halfway through a bar? (I'm thinking specifically of the quarter note theme that happens over and over again in Brahms' Tragic Overture - the phrases start on beat 4 and slur through an entire measure, ending after beat one in the next measure. To me, that screams "upbow")

Sometimes you have to look ahead and see where you need that down Bow and work backwards. Much of the music I get has old bowings in them or erased but visible. Usually they help but sometimes they are the result of someones ability and not always the best bowing.

Three note pick-ups to a Dn bow line, start with an up bow. Odd notes, = up bow start and even is usually Dn bow. Some times it doesn't make sense to try what is written but do so anyway and then try your idea awhile and see what is best. I played the Nut Cracker at least 4-5 times now and only last year did I change one of the bowings I was doing because a player in the NYC Ballet told me to. Now, it seems easier as well as the other night, my stand partner kept jumping to down bows for this repeated rhythm. I told him (as the Ballet player told me), just do continous bowings and it will come out correct in the end. Up dn up - dn up dn - up dn up- dn up dn....

Patience helps as does listening to those who have more experience in professional orchestras.

[Thomas Erickson]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Sometimes you have to look ahead and see where you need that down Bow and work backwards. Much of the music I get has old bowings in them or erased but visible. Usually they help but sometimes they are the result of someones ability and not always the best bowing.

Three note pick-ups to a Dn bow line, start with an up bow. Odd notes, = up bow start and even is usually Dn bow. Some times it doesn't make sense to try what is written but do so anyway and then try your idea awhile and see what is best. I played the Nut Cracker at least 4-5 times now and only last year did I change one of the bowings I was doing because a player in the NYC Ballet told me to. Now, it seems easier as well as the other night, my stand partner kept jumping to down bows for this repeated rhythm. I told him (as the Ballet player told me), just do continous bowings and it will come out correct in the end. Up dn up - dn up dn - up dn up- dn up dn....

Patience helps as does listening to those who have more experience in professional orchestras.

+1
I think too often bowings are over-thought, with players getting into "ruts" of unnecessary bowings rather than simply having the patience to play things straight through; the result, in a section, being an overall loss of sound/tone and strange inflections finding their way into music where they don't belong.

IMO there's nothing wrong with playing as much stuff straight-through as possible; "tricky" bowing rarely makes something more musical and easily becomes an annoying habit.

[Nick Hart]

Originally Posted by stan haskins

Good reply, thanks Nick.

What's a shoeshine stroke?

When you said "pickups generally start with up bows" I agree with you. What about long slurred phrases that start halfway through a bar? (I'm thinking specifically of the quarter note theme that happens over and over again in Brahms' Tragic Overture - the phrases start on beat 4 and slur through an entire measure, ending after beat one in the next measure. To me, that screams "upbow")

Hey Stan,

A shoeshine stroke is when the 16th notes, of a dotted 8th, 16th note figure, are played down bow and the 8ths are played up bow. It puts the emphasis on the 16th note instead of the dotted 8th.

I haven't played Brahms' Tragic Overture but anytime you have slurs like that it is all about context and what is going on in the rest of the orchestra. A lot of bowings can be derived by watching some of the other players, also by knowing your score. If the winds have the melody and the melody is mp, then I would probably argue that if possible don't break slurs if you don't have the melody.

A good slur example is in Mozart's Overture to Le Nozze di Figaro. On the ascending quarter note figure, the first 5 quarter notes are usually played up bow and the last 2 played down bow to show the movement of the line and phrase. Also check out the scores of the pieces. Composers, such as Mahler, tend to put in their own slurs. Although many will argue that those are phrase markings and not necessarily bowings, I think many people will be very surprised the amazing sound achieved when following his bowings. Right now Paavo Jarvi out here in Cincinnati is making a bunch of great sounds with that philosophy.

As you can see this topic can go on forever it is almost all a matter of taste and ****ysis. My main thing of advice is know what the rest of the orchestra is doing. It is very hard to understand your part correctly if you don't understand everybody else's part as well.

[Kjetil Laukholm]

Originally Posted by Nick Hart

A shoeshine stroke is when the 16th notes, of a dotted 8th, 16th note figure, are played down bow and the 8ths are played up bow. It puts the emphasis on the 16th note instead of the dotted 8th.

In general the shoeshine is used to achieve two equally short and equally loud notes. It is easier to execute down-up than up-down.

Standard shoeshine passages are Symphonie Fantastique and Schubert Great C major last movement