" Name That Bass " aka "This OLD Bass"

[Brian Glassman]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I know we did this to death a couple of years ago on TB but to date we are no closer to finding a maker than we were then.

In closing there I posted pics of my Top and another one that I think is similar. Also, both Basses have similar large type dimensions. I will now post both Top and Back shots side by side and just ask all of you to point out "How close they to look in style and features as well as the differences they appear to have"?

Please don't be so shy. This is not a test to retain your Forum membership..

Well, I don't know. The shape of the upper and lower bouts look completely different to me. Somehow the shape of your mystery bass reminded me of that Houska article on the Prokap bass. http://www.contrabass.co.uk/spring98.htm I know you don't think it is related to the Prokap bass, but something about the way the c bouts flow into the lower bouts seem more similar than this bass. I get a Bohemian vibe anyway.

BG

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Brian Glassman

Well, I don't know. The shape of the upper and lower bouts look completely different to me. Somehow the shape of your mystery bass reminded me of that Houska article on the Prokap bass. http://www.contrabass.co.uk/spring98.htm I know you don't think it is related to the Prokap bass, but something about the way the c bouts flow into the lower bouts seem more similar than this bass. I get a Bohemian vibe anyway.

BG

Brian, I agree with you partially on that Prokop Bass but that is the only Bohemian Bass I have ever seen with soft Gamba Corners. On the subject of 'Gamba', in the 19th century book by Sandy's & Forster(S.A., pupil of Gilkes) titled 'History of the Violin' there is a picture of an old English Viol d'Gamba with tons of inlay decorations etc and the exact soft Gamba corners as the Prokop Bass and this Bass of mine as well as far as the lower bout corner goes.

On the Gamba thing, my Bass has many scars from previous cross bars in the Back. Currently it has an X-Brace in 3 pieces with the lap-joint broken and not connected under the longer piece. It also has Scars from some standard type System and older Scars of Gamba type Bars with 2 or 3 below the center Bar and 2 or 3 more above it. This is typical for old English Gambas more so that any Flat back Bass I have ever seen. With the lower corner almost a Guitar and the Neck Block area Gamba construction as well, I can only guess that this was made by a Gamba maker rather than a Violin maker or one that did both. The fine grade of wood on the Top used is rarely seen on a Bass and especially on English Basses.

With a combination of English Gamba style making, English Sycamore wood, old English style Purfling on the Top and English Ink on the Back, one must conclude that this is none other than an *early English Bass (*pre-Panormo/Brescian influenced design). The Prokop Bass is a 'fluke' if you ask me and not typical at all of the Bohemian School. That Bass had 'Guitar' written all over it! George Chanot (worked in France and England) made some Guitar form Violins and some patents as well prior to that Prokop. Perhaps Chanot was the inspiration combined with Stauffer who was his teacher and a Guitar maker.

On the Pics above and the similarities I see it in the FFs a bit along with their low placement, the size which is very close to my Bass and the Back construction with the half-inlay rubbing down the center joint to used to aide in shrinkage and expansion as the Bass moves. My Bass measures slightly bigger but the size is along the same idea. That Bass by the way is by George Corsby, 1800 London from Contrabass Shoppe. There is another older Corsby in the books from Northampton c'1770-1780 as G.Corsby appears in London from 1785. These two are speculated by some to be Brothers but no first name is known for the earlier maker who was known as a Bass maker. The London Corsby was a Bass and Violin maker as well as a Dealer. Becoming a dealer in London was the normal trait for makers in their later years when it was learned they could earn more money than by just making. Makers that turned to dealers include Dodd, Forster, Betts, Davis, Hart and Hill. Everyone mentioned was a maker first. I suspect that both Corsby's are possibly one and the same. While up in Northampton he made chiefly Basses and then moved to London making some more and then turned Dealer.

I have been told by many that my Bass is made in Northern England but I have yet to find a single maker with FFs like mine and the balanced Gamba Form as well. London Makers made this more balanced form than those in the northern areas and most of them date much later. The fact that my Bass has Yankee repairs from the mid 19th century indicates that it was an old Bass already by then. This Bass was used very little in the 20th century with some old C-extension scars as the only evidence. The Coal dust in the cracks indicates it was out of use for a very long time as well as the ribs peeling off the blocks. There were even patched floating around inside that just 'fell off' as the Bass was drying out.

I am not conclusive that Corsby (London or Northampton) is the maker but that London did have Gamba form Basses as well as the later makers up north including Tarr. Before Panormo and the Strad influence in London Stainer and makers of the Tirol were the biggest influence in London. This is why we see that Germanic flavor in many English Basses because that's what they had seen to go on. at the turn of the 19th Century we have Panormo who was big on Strad as well as Dragonetti with his d'Salo and at least one Maggini Bass floating around in town. I see Maggini as the main model that many used including Dodd, Lott, Fendt, Kennedy, *J.Hart and Wlm.Gilkes from 1800 -1840 (later Hart Basses were made by William Vallentine who became his son-in-law). Earlier London Basses included the Cello shape and some other ideas for a Gamba shape like those used by the Hills of the late 18th century. The more rounded Gamba design is mostly Germanic but the softer corners and the sloped shoulders are straight from the viol d'gamba form.

On my Bass it also has some old style French flavour in the upper back in both shape and bend style. The Back bends gently from the corner block to the neck block which is French in tradition. The Ribs are 8.5" from the lower block (endpin) to the upper bout corner and then tapers to 5.75" at the neck. The French and some English moved back and forth learning from and working with each other. That is fact and not speculation. Germany was also a big trade partner with England as well. Many visiting Orchestras and Musicians came to London as well as several from Italy. It is this 'visiting' factor from France, Germany and Italy that gave London its flavor more so than any Londoner traveling thru the continent which was not the case at all.

If you look closely at my Bass you will see French, Italian, Germanic and English flavors all rolled up in one Bass (the Yankee flavor being only later modifications and not in the making). You almost never see any English flavor in the other countries mentioned. Why is that? Because they had their own recipe and English was never a flavor in the continent with the exception of New England Yankee Basses which were a mix or English and German mainly. The English were mainly Copyists, period! Makers often copied Stainer and Amati in the same shop with the occasional Strad. The French thing is not that common with the exception of a few that may have worked there or with someone from France in the UK. This Bass is somewhat of a 'melting pot' example with the 'gamba flavor added both inside and out. When I showed the C-bout corner blocks to Jeff Bollbach up at 'Biasie's, he mentioned he has seen this style only in old French and English Basses and furniture as well.

So, with that 'brief' explanation, how does London/Corsby style sit now in your mind?

[Brian Glassman]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

On my Bass it also has some old style French flavour in the upper back in both shape and bend style. The Back bends gently from the corner block to the neck block which is French in tradition. The Ribs are 8.5" from the lower block (endpin) to the upper bout corner and then tapers to 5.75" at the neck. The French and some English moved back and forth learning from and working with each other. That is fact and not speculation. Germany was also a big trade partner with England as well. Many visiting Orchestras and Musicians came to London as well as several from Italy. It is this 'visiting' factor from France, Germany and Italy that gave London its flavor more so than any Londoner traveling thru the continent which was not the case at all.

If you look closely at my Bass you will see French, Italian, Germanic and English flavors all rolled up in one Bass (the Yankee flavor being only later modifications and not in the making). You almost never see any English flavor in the other countries mentioned. Why is that? Because they had their own recipe and English was never a flavor in the continent with the exception of New England Yankee Basses which were a mix or English and German mainly. The English were mainly Copyists, period! Makers often copied Stainer and Amati in the same shop with the occasional Strad. The French thing is not that common with the exception of a few that may have worked there or with someone from France in the UK. This Bass is somewhat of a 'melting pot' example with the 'gamba flavor added both inside and out. When I showed the C-bout corner block to Jeff Bollbach up at 'Biasie's, he mentioned he has seen this style only in old French and English Basses and furniture as well.

So, with that 'brief' explanation, how does London/Corsby style sit now in your mind?

I do see what you mean about all the different influences.
I'm not so experienced w/ 'f' hole ID, but to me the upper bout shape definitely has a French feel to it. Almost "Lamy"-like http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2453.htm , although we know that this bass is earlier. How about these English guys?; http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2114.htm , http://www.contrabass.co.uk/1900.htm , http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2657.htm ,or these German guys?;
http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2657.htm , http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2579.htm

Bri

[David Powell]

Just looking at photos and not considering the other clues that point to England, the f holes are the most similar characteristic to the G. Corsby DB. The arching also looks similar. The outline just doesn't seem the same at all. The bouts are almost taken from a perfect circle on the mystery bass. The Corsby is much more anglular in the bouts. But shape alone doesn't necessarily mean that much. Weren't the shoulders of the mystery bass altered as well?

The Prokop bass certainly has a lot of the same general shape characteristics, but the other details of making don't really match at all. The shape is definitely heading the same way, but the mystery bass has bouts that are much closer to the same size. Also, I would reason that it makes sense that outlines might be copied more frequently than construction methodology. So you see borrowed forms "by the English hand" so to speak. In any case, it has one of the most pleasing outlines that I think I have ever seen. I guess there are only a few makers that could have plausibly made that bass given the factual evidence of it's origins, the wood type, etc. So it is at least narrowed to an English maker. If not Corsby, then who? That becomes the question. So we look at the f-holes again.....

[Ken Smith]

Brian, thanks for the links of reference. Period wise, we are near c.1800 or earlier on this Bass. As you can see, so many Bass have sloped shoulders that are actually taken from the Viol family and not the Violin. Many Northern English makers worked on German patterns while the London School favored the Italian style and often Maggini within that school. Basses from London in the Gamba form are usually closer to c.1800 or earlier. Cello form was used in both London and Germany as well but not much after 1800. When a dealer sees an English Bass with Gamba form, he cries out 'Northern England or English midlands'. When they don't see the English connection right away or at all, they usually jump to Bohemia or Germany. It is not always as simple as that all the time and the Bass of mine is a clear example of straying from the norm in every possible way!

David, the bouts were not actually Altered other that Wear or trim at the outer Purfling line of each side on the upper and lower bouts. No more than 1/4" from what I can see from where the Purfling runs off the Bass. The C-bout is warn as well but I can see all or most of the Purfling on the inner curve where mainly only the edges are worn.

One point I was trying to make is that I cannot find a single Northern Maker of Basses that made FFs like this or a bass for that matter. Not a single person in the world to date has shown me anything similar as well is a Bass inside or out.

The original internal construction, some of which only has 'scars' left in place is something else I have not seen in any other Bass or at least all of these in one single Bass. Clearly, this Maker made Viols in the olde English tradition which died out in the 18th century for the most part.

On the subject of Hill, I don't doubt him as a possibly either as well as Corsby. I just wish there were other Basses like it in some way to make better comparisons.

[Brian Glassman]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

The original internal construction, some of which only has 'scars' left in place is something else I have not seen in any other Bass or at least all of these in one single Bass. Clearly, this Maker made Viols in the olde English tradition which died out in the 18th century for the most part.

On the subject of Hill, I don't doubt him as a possibly either as well as Corsby. I just wish there were other Basses like it in some way to make better comparisons.

Well, yes. I think it's closer to that Joseph Hill bass than the Corsby. Are the F's that different? Imagine this Hill Bass w/ more rounded upper bouts..pretty close.

From the pics the back has an almost Pearwood look to it. Is it deffinately Sycamore? If so where else could there be fine Sycamore during that period?

It's shape deffinately doesn't point one way or another too clearly.
Is there anything else that points to some other early European school like Dutch or Scandinavian, Vienese? or does it only seem English or Germanic now?

Sounds like you'd need to explore that viol/gamba or bass violone transitional period a bit more, but I wouldn't leave out that same period in France either. I don't know now, the more I look at the your bass the more it's outline feels French to me.

W/ it's large dimensions and internal bracketing issues could it only be a true double bass or may it have actually been a modified later Bass Viola Da Gamba or "Bass Violone" of some type?

BG

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Brian Glassman

Well, yes. I think it's closer to that Joseph Hill bass than the Corsby. Are the F's that different? Imagine this Hill Bass w/ more rounded upper bouts..pretty close.

From the pics the back has an almost Pearwood look to it. Is it definitely Sycamore? If so where else could there be fine Sycamore during that period?

It's shape definitely doesn't point one way or another too clearly.
Is there anything else that points to some other early European school like Dutch or Scandinavian, Viennese? or does it only seem English or Germanic now?

Sounds like you'd need to explore that viol/gamba or bass violone transitional period a bit more, but I wouldn't leave out that same period in France either. I don't know now, the more I look at the your bass the more it's outline feels French to me.

W/ it's large dimensions and internal bracketing issues could it only be a true double bass or may it have actually been a modified later Bass Viola Da Gamba or "Bass Violone" of some type?

BG

I don't know how big a Bass Violone would be. I have seen only a few and only one was DB size. Viol d'Gambas were small like Cellos I think. As far as the English thing goes and not French or otherwise the materials and Viol construction all point to England according to Biase. On the Back wood, it is the same highly flamed Sycamore as seen on the inner Ribs. If it is French then it would be an 18th century Bass before all the Bernadel, Gand etc type makers with that Cello outline. This Bass from LeJeune (Paris, c.1785 from World of Basses, Germany) looks slightly similar and completely different that the later French Basses we are used to seeing. Look at the LeJeune and the Mystery Bass side by side!





On another website (Healey Violins, UK), we fine the exact Bass in different lighting and also dated c.1790.



On the LeJeune, it has a clear angle break in the upper bout and not a long gentle bend like my Bass.