Endpin talk...

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard

Several months ago, I stuck a 5/8" birch dowel in place of the hollow metal pin and the bass sounded much warmer and seemed to have a bit more volume. This was on both tile and hardwood floors. The problem is that I sit on a low stool and with the bass laying into me, it slid on the crutch tip. It just didn't seem worth the trouble.

Regarding amps, I've used a small tripod Ultimate stand to help me hear, but nothing else.

My reference to the Amps was only that it makes a difference on different floors and with wheels or rubber feet so with Basses it might make a difference as well what kind of Endpin you use.

I am wondering why they can't use the regular Endpin socket rather than drilling a second hole in the Block for the tilted unit. Also, how is it different to use a bent Endpin or just tilt the Bass with a regular Endpin. The entire Philly Orch and NY Phil in the sections use regular Endpins. I think I did see Hal Robinson do a solo one day and have a bent Endpin on that Bass but not on any of the Orchestral Basses I have seen.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I am wondering why they can't use the regular Endpin socket rather than drilling a second hole in the Block for the tilted unit. Also, how is it different to use a bent Endpin or just tilt the Bass with a regular Endpin. The entire Philly Orch and NY Phil in the sections use regular Endpins. I think I did see Hal Robinson do a solo one day and have a bent Endpin on that Bass but not on any of the Orchestral Basses I have seen.

Not sure what you're envisioning with the endpin coming out of the regular socket. However, one argument against doing it that way is that not having the endpin in the socket that is in touch with the tailpiece-string assembly allows the bass to vibrate more freely

No doubt those of us using this type of endpin are a small minority, but we're a growing one! I bet you will see more and more players everywhere (including in major sections) using this type in the future.

[Ken Smith]

I have seen Viennese type Basses with a separate wood socket for the Tailwire close to the Top and the Endpin by the center. I haven't seen any vintage Basses of high value thus far with a second hole drilled towards the Back of the Bass for this bent thing. I would be worried about weakening the Bass at the block area myself.

I myself do a combination of sitting or standing depending on how I feel or what Bass I am using. Some Endpins have a round Rubber Ball at the end but on a wooden floor, they tend to slide a bit more than on carpet.

One one of my Basses in Restoration now I was trying to decide which Endpin type to use since I will only be up a few inches if that much. I was considering either a standard 3/8 steel pin unit or a wooden one and maybe make a few sizes for standing or sitting lengths if it mattered at all sound wise. I usually cut off most of the excess inside the Bass on both the Steel and Carbon Fiber Rods.

The Bass is a 7/8-4/4 size standing about 6ft5in (77") from the top saddle to the tip of the Scroll. After the Bass is shortened at the Block and Neck Graft is will be about 75" minimum. With the Endpin in all the way, you can add about 3 1/2" with the Endpin all the way in. This is one Bass I actually measured for an Endpin unit so that when I sit, the Back doesn't touch the floor. The Socket is about 1/2" or so forward of center so this was a concern as the Ribs are 8.5" inside the plates (over 9" with Top & Back). Tilting this Bass when I sit is of some concern since the 'Pin will be very low.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I only use about 6" of my endpin, with approx 3" sticking out of the bass. What effect, if any, would removing the excess have on the sound?

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I have seen Viennese type Basses with a separate wood socket for the Tailwire close to the Top and the Endpin by the center. I haven't seen any vintage Basses of high value thus far with a second hole drilled towards the Back of the Bass for this bent thing. I would be worried about weakening the Bass at the block area myself.

Both of Rabbath's Quenoils are drilled this way, as are all Paul Ellison's basses (Maggini, Quenoil, etc), Rufus Reid's bass... there are lots of old high value basses that have been set up this way. I've never heard of anyone having a problem with the block. I suppose that if the bass had a problem at the block to begin with there could trouble, or maybe on a cheaply made bass.

[Eric Hochberg]

Also, Glen Moore uses the Laborie pin in his big old bass, I believe it's a Klotz.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I am wondering why they can't use the regular Endpin socket rather than drilling a second hole in the Block for the tilted unit. Also, how is it different to use a bent Endpin or just tilt the Bass with a regular Endpin.

You can use the regular pin socket to attach an egg pin which simulates the Laborie without the second hole. It's a fairly heavy device that goes on and off the bass for travel. Hans Sturm, who produced Rabbath's "Art of the Bow" video uses the egg pin with his older Italian bass as he didn't want to have a hole drilled in it. I used the egg pin to experiment with the angled pin concept before I had a hole drilled. I suppose you could also bend a pin to simulate the position of the laborie pin. Holding it firmly in the socket so it doesn't twist might be a challenge. I like the convenience of the Laborie pin. I don't think my basses sound different with it than with the egg pin.

I also used a 45º bent pin in my normal socket for a while. It changed the balance of the bass a bit, causing it to fall in towards my body at a more open angle, but didn't have the dramatic effect of the Laborie pin with the drilled hole.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I also want to point out that sound may differ as well regardless of the Endpin type or extension depending on the surface you are playing on.

Some years ago I was doing a recording session, jazz quartet, and the engineer just couldn't come up with a good bass sound, he must have spent an hour at this. He had me set up in a carpeted booth. I finally took the bass out of the room, played a few notes on a hardwood floor, and that was it. From that point on, I always ask for a piece of plywood to set the bass on if there is carpeting. The carpet seemed to suck up the percussive attack of the instrument. Hard surfaces seem to emphasize it, what I want in jazz playing, at least.

[Charles Federle]

One thing I forgot to mention is that when I tried the experiment with my friend's bass we tried the same thing with mine. For my bass it did not make as dramatic of a difference as his. Might of had to do with mine being shorter (only about 18 inches), hollow like the carbon fiber rod, and perhaps because it was much lighter then his.

I do think it is important though being able to stick the endpin into the floor. Granted some places more then others. One concert hall I play in they have boxes for each player, similar to that a cello soloist might use, even has a bass bar in the box right about where you would put your end pin. These boxes make a huge difference especially when playing on the extension.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Charles Federle

One thing I forgot to mention is that when I tried the experiment with my friend's bass we tried the same thing with mine. For my bass it did not make as dramatic of a difference as his. Might of had to do with mine being shorter (only about 18 inches), hollow like the carbon fiber rod, and perhaps because it was much lighter then his.

I do think it is important though being able to stick the endpin into the floor. Granted some places more then others. One concert hall I play in they have boxes for each player, similar to that a cello soloist might use, even has a bass bar in the box right about where you would put your end pin. These boxes make a huge difference especially when playing on the extension.

The Carbon Fiber Rods I have are all Solid. I have had Aluminum Rods Hollow that were painted Black but all the CF Rods I have seen are solid.

[Charles Federle]

The one we used was a bit of an odd ball. I think it came from Bob's house of bass. I remember it being hollow because we were so worried about crushing it with his thumbscrew, my current aluminum endpin though is hollow.

I am about to try a solid CF rod on my bass. Found just finding a piece of 10mm carbon fiber is much cheaper then something that is an endpin rod depending on the results I might try something wooden next. Any suggestions on what kind of wood might be the best ? Right now I am think either a strong maple or maybe lignum vitae (if I can find it).

[davidseidel]

Wondering as Ken asks what difference there may be between tilting the bass with a straight pin as compared to the Laborie angled one? Also with the new hardwood ones are they adjustable length? Could they be installed straight if one wanted to? Lots of questions as I have never tried an angled pin but interested in what its like and very interested in using a wooden one such as this either way. Also with the Laborie pin how does it work if one is sitting to play? I mostly stand out of choice myself but sometimes in orchestra work of course sitting may be the norm. drilling the block does seem a bit extreme especially in an old valuable instrument but if it works .......

[Ken Smith]

You are not just drilling the Block. You are putting a hole in the Rib as well!

On the restorations I have had recently, many of the Basses needed a new Block and these only had one hole in it. Out of 8 Basses opened up, 4 or 5 needed a new Block (I don't recall if the Gilkes was replaced or trimmed as it looks old but not as old as the neck block).

I can't imagine how a Block will last with two holes being drilled. I have only seen a few Basses with a separate Tailwire Socket and separate Endpin so I can't say for sure if this weakens the Block over time but using either Endpin over time is double duty on the Block itself.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by davidseidel

Wondering as Ken asks what difference there may be between tilting the bass with a straight pin as compared to the Laborie angled one? Also with the Laborie pin how does it work if one is sitting to play?

It's all about the balance. When I tilt my bass back on its straight endpin, it falls to the left if I don't hold it with my left hand. With the angled hole, the bass more or less stays back without falling. It takes some practice to find the balance point but when you do, you find you don't have to hold the instrument up with your hand, freeing it up.

When sitting, I don't know how critical the angled hole is as I can position the bass in a more open cello-like position with the normal endpin. You would probably need a shorter Laborie pin for sitting depending upon the height of the stool.

[Robert Anzellotti]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

...I am wondering why they can't use the regular Endpin socket rather than drilling a second hole in the Block for the tilted unit. Also, how is it different to use a bent Endpin or just tilt the Bass with a regular Endpin. ...

Are you referring to the Laborie? And are you suggesting that the through-hole in the socket could be angled? I have not only pondered this, but done it. The through-hole is always straight simply because it's way easier to manufacture a socket this way. Making it angled not only complicates production, but the amount of angle is limited by the bore and height of the bottom block, and the diameter of the socket. I made some extra wide sockets for my basses and drilled the holes at an angle, but was only able to achieve about 10°. I think a typical Laborie installation is 30° or more.

Still, I find that even the modestly angled pin was worth doing. Besides the effect on playability of moving the center of gravity rearwards (which I find quite positive), my reason for doing it was to reduce skating. I don't know why, but I cannot use a rubber tip when sitting. Unless I have my sharp point deeply embedded in the floor, or have a belt connecting my pin to my stool, I will chase the bass all the way up to the conductor before the first break. Having an angled pin greatly reduces this tendancy.

Also, you reduce the active length of the endpin, which is especially beneficial for tall players. Having 15" of pin sticking out in front of you is bad for several reasons, stress on the bottom block being a big one. Cellists have adopted the "angle" in large numbers. I think they know something. Since most bassists don't extend their endpins very far, it is a lesser issue for us, but I think not insignificant.

So far, the choices are to either bore a second hole (Laborie), schlepp some heavy hardware - which looks like it came from a suspension bridge - (Eggpin), or use a bent pin which destroys the collar/setscrew. I never tried to market my angled socket because I decided players wouldn't accept the fatness or reduced angle. I think angled pins are a good idea, but a good design has yet to be offered.

[Eric Hochberg]

I'm thinking about replacing my endpin and would like to know which you prefer. I've looked at the KCStrings, Onyx, Ulsa on the web. Any others?