The art of bowing.

[Jeff Moote]

I don't know about German bow as I'm a French player, but I'm sure what I'm about to say applies to both:

• Even on the shortest notes, there must be some arm movement. The wrist/hand alone cannot generate a good sound without the weight of the arm.
• How short are these notes you're talking about that you're only using 1/3 of the bow? For an allegro tempo 8ths should get at least half a bow, and at a slow tempo a whole bow. Quarters almost always a whole bow.

This is again only for the "default" stroke. There's obviously a lot of other options when you get into articulations, spiccato plus you might want a certain effect like bowing slower near the bridge, etc. The above advice would be for developing a solid orchestral stroke to which adjustments can be made for the other techniques.

[Nick Hart]

I am a German player and play using this "New York" style of playing although I would call it more of a Russian school as all of my German bow teachers have been from Russia. The principle is that the sound comes from large muscle groups, and that your wrist plays no part in the sound. Your entire arm has to work as a unit in order for a core sound to be pulled at all times. Yes, your fingers and wrist play a part in the sound, and the fingers a more important part than the wrist, but the idea is that your fingers and wrist serve as shock absorbers and follow through, and are not conscious movements.

The movement should start from the floor and come through your body, and this creates a very slight sway from side to side in the direction your bow is moving. Then the actual bow movement starts from the muscles in your back and the entire arm moves, and the fingers remain active and pull the string as the bow moves. As this is happening the arm moves in sort of a pendulum motion in order to distribute weight. So as I go through a down bow, my arm lifts a little so that the weight transfers to the tip of the bow and as I pull an up bow, my arm moves lower so the weight transfers from the tip to the frog.

My bow hold is this New York/Russian style hold. I place the pad of my thumb on top of the stick of the bow, with the pointer and middle fingers sitting on the side and playing an active part in the pull of the bow. My ring and pinky fingers sit underneath the ferrole of the bow and balance the bow or act as a more active pull in off the string strokes. The bow sits at a slight angle on my hand, so that I can have flat hair on the strings and keep my wrist straight at all times.

The idea is to feel every bow change and to hear an even sound, but there must be a start to the note in order to correctly hear the pitch. Also, if there is no start to the note, and there is no core sound, there will be very little pitch definition, and this is usually much more obvious in off the string and shorter strokes.

As far as injury goes, most musicians have injuries from repetitive movements in the small muscle groups. We train our small muscle groups to do very specific things and this leads to injury. By moving our primary focus away from small muscle groups and towards large muscle groups, we can let the small muscle groups act more naturally and draw a rich and big bassy sound with less effort and injury.

[Richard Prowse]

Nick,
I read your post with great interest. Thanks for your thoughts.
Richard

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Jeff Moote

I don't know about German bow as I'm a French player, but I'm sure what I'm about to say applies to both:

• Even on the shortest notes, there must be some arm movement. The wrist/hand alone cannot generate a good sound without the weight of the arm.
• How short are these notes you're talking about that you're only using 1/3 of the bow? For an allegro tempo 8ths should get at least half a bow, and at a slow tempo a whole bow. Quarters almost always a whole bow.

This is again only for the "default" stroke. There's obviously a lot of other options when you get into articulations, spiccato plus you might want a certain effect like bowing slower near the bridge, etc. The above advice would be for developing a solid orchestral stroke to which adjustments can be made for the other techniques.

If you don't play German bow, how would you know? I think Nick explained it pretty well, but for spiccato or sautille, there is very little arm involved compared to hand and wrist, the way I was taught;- by two different teachers. They were not Russians, but I think it is not inconsistent with Nick's explanation. If the bow is 140+ grams, that is sufficient weight without the arm, and it is not like the weight of the arm is somehow suspended just because it is not going back and forth. The weight of the arm is always there. Just for fun, Jeff, you should try out a German bow. It also makes a difference if you are sitting or standing. I would think no two people end up approaching this exactly the same way. My first teachers bow was light and short. My second teacher thought my 140+ gram bow was a little light. However both taught the same push / pull with the fingers. I can't see how the fingers could do that motion on a French bow hold, so yes, with French maybe it is always the arm and arm only, but not so with the German. I can get 2 inches of very rapid motion with just fingers and wrist. Not that I do that on long notes, just the quick staccato ones. I'll try to take some photos of what I do. Perhaps that will help.

[Jeff Moote]

Originally Posted by David Powell

If you don't play German bow, how would you know?

Well, I wouldn't! That's not really the point though as I think no matter the grip you have to use your arm. Sure, maybe not as much for shorter off the string strokes, but all the power comes from the shoulder (and beyond). Nick's post confirms this for me, that German players do it too. It also sounds like you can use your fingers to aid in attack.

Just for fun, Jeff, you should try out a German bow. It also makes a difference if you are sitting or standing.

No thanks - I don't see any reason to waste time practicing something I'll never use. I think it's best that everyone just picks a grip and continues to develop that all along. Once you've mastered one, it's fair to consider spending some time on the other but as far as I'm concerned I'd like to focus on getting one right

I can get 2 inches of very rapid motion with just fingers and wrist. Not that I do that on long notes, just the quick staccato ones. I'll try to take some photos of what I do. Perhaps that will help.

I don't think I need photos - understand and this sounds quite fine, but even when executing spicatto you can't use only your fingers. They can aid the movement, but all the sound comes from the shoulder.

[Johnny Layton]

Originally Posted by Jeff Moote

I think it's best that everyone just picks a grip and continues to develop that all along.

I tend to agree, ultimately. I can be a tough call, though, especially when you're a curious sort and the opportunity to explore comes one's way.

I was encouraged to try French bow after only a year of lessons and study by my teacher, who was and still is quite far advanced from me in experience and skill. I did and it was fun, but it didn't take me long to return to the German bow and "get back to work".

Plus consider, say, Paul Ellison switching grips at leisure no matter the bow. I always thought that was darn cool.

Sorry not trying to argue anything, really...just enjoying the bowing thinking stuff all over again

[Richard Prowse]

I played French for many years and switched to German about 3 years ago because of an RSI type hand injury. I love German but, if I had to play French for a while that would be fine too. Each bow definitely has its own advantages but I think that the same basic mechanics of bowing apply to both. I honestly believe that a good arco player would get pleasing results from both bows... good bowing is as much in the head.
Articulation, now there's another problem. Anyone had a go at the Take 5 B section?

[David Powell]

Take Five;- I'll give it a shot later today, Richard. We will be performing tonight and will probably do "Take Five" but I have to play it in key to match the sax. I remember my biggest problem last time I tried it was figuring out where to place the arpeggios in those chords. It seems I was leaning heavily toward thumb position for the whole series of chords but it is possible to do it several different fingerings, all of which result in several different appoaches to the strokes. That is the toughest jazz melody to put on the finger board that I have tried yet. I'm sure once I get the "trick" of the placement down, it will be pretty straight forward.

[Richard Prowse]

Originally Posted by David Powell

Take Five;- I'll give it a shot later today, Richard. We will be performing tonight and will probably do "Take Five" but I have to play it in key to match the sax. I remember my biggest problem last time I tried it was figuring out where to place the arpeggios in those chords. It seems I was leaning heavily toward thumb position for the whole series of chords but it is possible to do it several different fingerings, all of which result in several different appoaches to the strokes. That is the toughest jazz melody to put on the finger board that I have tried yet. I'm sure once I get the "trick" of the placement down, it will be pretty straight forward.

The tune's pretty easy (note wise) in Gm. I play the A section down the bass and do the B section in thumb position. It's the arco articulation of that B section that I spend a lot of time thinking about. I worry about not getting a good feel. I'll be very interested to get your opinion.
Thanks David