"Cornerless Italian & Spanish Basses"

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Ken, did you know that David Weibe built a copy of the Riccardi bass?

I have pictures of it as well. He did not copy the Scroll though and also used completely different wood than on the 'Riccardi' Bass. I think to have any chance at all to come close you must copy as much of the original Bass as possible including the materials used.

[Ken Smith]

Found it here while surfing..

[Ken McKay]

You need that hat.

Ken, take a look here http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage6 for a comparison of the bass I am making with the da Salo ff holes. They were copied from the photograph. Mine do look different, but kinda similar. It just goes to show that when you copy from a photo, then lay the paper over the contour of the bass top, they come out a little different. But live and learn. I will cut the nicks (sp) when I get the neck on and that will help.

As far as lopsided goes, It just came out that way without using a mold. I do regret not fixing the right upper bout when I had a chance. I am going to antique it in the end and all the characteristics will hopefully blend. It is what it is though.

[Ken Smith]

What I see in the FFs is that although you think they look similar, the curve concept is not even close. The length, width, taper, tabs, curves, position, pitch etc. It's a different F-pattern altogether, period.

If you were to show me 10 F-patterns with the d'Salo included and then showed me yours, it would be a slim chance I would guess you've ever seen the d'Salo. To me, they have no similarities other than they are FFs. Sorry, it's just how I see it.

Also your comment, "I didn't want them to look Cremonese". What does that have to do with d'Salo? He is from Brescia, not Cremona. What's wrong with looking Cremonese either? Giuseppe Guarneri was from Cremona as well but his F-pattern is completely different from Strad so what is it that you think would look Cremona?

[Anselm Hauke]

so this is a "Pietro Giacomo Rogeri (Brescia, 1680 - 1730)" ?

imho the f-holes may look brescian, but the rest of the bass looks very fine for a 300 year old bass. (?)

[Anselm Hauke]

i also like this pic from mr. grillo.
(nice website, thanks eric)

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke

so this is a "Pietro Giacomo Rogeri (Brecia, 1680 - 1730)" ?

imho the f-holes may look brescian, but the rest of the bass looks very fine for a 300 year old bass. (?)

So they claim!

My Bass looks at least as old condition-wise but proving it's a Storioni let alone Rogeri or d'Salo as previously claimed is just as hard to swallow.

My Gilkes from 1814 is hard to believe as well condition-wise. The Hart Bass made only slightly later (c.1830) looks quite typical for a Bass that was used for almost 2 centuries. The Prescott Bass I has recently was another Bass in remarkable condition for its age as compared to other Prescotts we have seen.

I am not an expert on Rogeri or any other Italian maker for that matter. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I am sure that in this case as with many others it is possible that the highest name 'on the food chain' was sought out and certified.

[Anselm Hauke]

but it sounds good (click on "mp3" on the navigationbar on the left)
i´m listening to "itesi" right now

http://www.fernandogrillo.net/Fernan...lo/default.asp

[Ken Smith]

for comparison purposes..


Pictured above, the late Bob Riccardi Sr. with the attributed Storioni.

[Christopher Williams]

hi folks... i'm new to the forum but was intrigued by this thread. the subject of the "Spanish" photo above is most likely Catalan; though the list describes a "contrabajista en Madrid", my guess is that the player, the bass, or both are from these parts...

there is a relatively unknown tradition of pear-shaped bass luthiery in Catalonia which revolves around the instrument's presence in the "Cobla", or traditional dance orchestra that accompanies the "Sardana", a popular national folk dance one often sees in small towns on Sundays after mass. maybe someone is hip to these groups? the band consists of a flabiol (3-holed flute) player -- sort of a lead alto, if you will -- a few nasty traditional double reed instruments (tibles), a few more double reeds in a lower register (tenores), some trumpets, flugelhorns, valve trombones (or the like), and... the poor, overworked bassist, who pushes the whole thing uphill. with no help from anyone!

the typical instrument is (or was -- nowadays players tend to grab the cheapest, loudest Chinese plywood for the job), as the picture indicates, a slightly squatty pear-shaped bass with 3 gut strings, set up a yard off the fingerboard for maximum thumpage. the nickname for this style of bass is the "Berra" (Boar, a play on "Pera", for pear).

i've been told that there was something of a golden age in the construction of these instruments in the 19th century, esp. in the city of Tortosa, near Valencia. i've played a couple, plus some modern copies, and they're absolutely lovely. very special, a bit cantankerous but svelt. i would love to own one someday, though right now i'm happy with my little French bass, which i was told was imported as the Catalan market petered out.

another contrabassist who plays a beautiful Italian instrument is Stefano Scodaniddbio, new music virtuoso and former Grillo student. <http://www.stefanoscodanibbio.com/photos/gallery14.htm>

[Anselm Hauke]

Bellissimo Storioni ... complimenti! >>nice storioni...compliments<<<

Con gli Auguri di Fernando Grillo >>>???? from fernando grillo<<<<


Il giorno 29/dic/07, alle ore 21:59, Ken Smith ha scritto:

>>>> at 12/12/07 at 9:59 pm ken smith wrote:<<<<<

[Ken Smith]

Lucio Buccarella,contrabbasso, with his Cornerless Bass by Antonio Mariani, 1678 Pesaro.


Bassist with the Italian Chamber Orchestra 'I Musici'. Scroll down the members page and see the Storioni Cello as well.

[Ken Smith]

Antoni Torelló, a Catalan and formerly Principal of the Philly Orchestra.



Three strings? Is that what he's playing? Christopher Williams from Barcelona was right on target in his post above (post#78, last page).

[Nick Hart]

Hey Ken -

Grillo said:

Beautiful Storioni, with best wishes from him and then the date.

[Charlie Hack]

Wow...

I posted the original question about cornerless basses a while back, and I've just logged in for the first time in a while. This thread has grown into a wealth of information. Fascinating stuff. Just goes to show what a great resource the internet is for communication and research. When a bunch of bass geeks... I mean enthusiasts... pool their information, we get this. Awesome!

Cheers all,

Charlie

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hack

Wow...

I posted the original question about cornerless basses a while back, and I've just logged in for the first time in a while. This thread has grown into a wealth of information. Fascinating stuff. Just goes to show what a great resource the internet is for communication and research. When a bunch of bass geeks... I mean enthusiasts... pool their information, we get this. Awesome!

Cheers all,

Charlie

Yes, you started this first thread about 10 days earlier than my thread here on the Italians. I wanted to have a specific one about the old Italians where it all started and then included the Spanish in the title as they too started using this shape later on. Both Threads talk about the Italians but your talks about old and new regardless of where they are being made. TalkBass has one as well on Guitar and Pear Shaped Basses started by you as well. So tell me, which Forum gave you the most info on the subject?

Now I have two cornerless Basses but both are going into some long term restorations soon so it will be a year or more before I have either of them back. Jeff is doing the Storioni and Arnold is doing the one I acquired recently. Playing them first hand, I can really see how they vibrate differently than cornered Basses.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

... and Arnold is doing the one I acquired recently.

?? Which one would that be, then??

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

?? Which one would that be, then??

Well, it's another Italian Bass. Arnold and I have decided not to show it or market it till after the Bass is fully restored and ready to play.

My website is full of Basses in restoration so leaving out 1 or 2 won't hurt. For now, it's just another old Bass that can't be played yet. I briefly tested it and it does sound good, real good. Playing it will only make it worse so it's off the market and out of sight for a year or so, possibly two.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Well, it's another Italian Bass [...] Playing it will only make it worse so it's off the market and out of sight for a year or so, possibly two.

Well, I don't believe you. You're making it up. No way you have bought a second italian cornerless bass.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Well, I don't believe you. You're making it up. No way you have bought a second italian cornerless bass.

Ok, if you say so. The Back and one piece Ribs (no corner blocks) seem to be Walnut, I think. That's all I will say. Ask me in a year or so about it. By then I should have some sort of update on its progress. That's IF I actually did buy the Bass.

Basses are offered to me from time to time in various situations. If I like it and think it's a good candidate, then I might buy it. The list of Basses I turn down is way way bigger that the list of Basses I am interested to buy. Also, I can't afford to buy every Bass. The deal has to be 'just right' to appeal to me. Most of the Basses I buy need a lot of work right off the bat. Others can use some work if I want to get it in top playing condition. Last year I almost bought another small Cornerless Italian Bass in Italy but didn't push hard to get it. A local player bought it over there so it never made it across the pond.