"Cornerless Italian & Spanish Basses"

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Stefano told me that his old italian cornerless bass has sack-cloth lining all around, and no visible wooden reinforcement.

Sack-cloth lining all around? Oh, ok but it would be nice if we could see some pics of Stefano Sciascia's Bass you refer to. Also, if the Bass is old and has a lot of rib cracks, stripping like in Jeff's pics would make it easier to repair.

One other thing especially in new Basses is that when the Back moves thru the seasons you want either a seam to pop or the Rib to crack. If the Rib construction is too strong like with 20th century German Basses with lining in and outside the Ribs, Only the Top will crack or in the case of a Flatback, maybe the Back as well.

Just ask any repairman in the northeast how many Juzekish Basses (mainly those Germanic style shop Basses with outer linings on them) are flooding the benches this winter with cracks. Arnold, Jeff and a NJ repairman have told me how busy they are with mainly these 'stronger constructed' Basses just 'cracking up' and not from my jokes!

One of my newer Basses (20th century) was repaired this past summer and in the beginning of this winter each lower seam popped from the bottom Block up about a foot or less on each side a few weeks apart from each other. After I re-glued them nice and tight with hide glue, the Top split up a few inches from the outer lower flank from the edge thru the purfling in line with the outer edge of the F-hole but only about 6" long. I glued that right away to stop it from spreading. A week later the lower seam on the same side popped again and this time some splinters of the Back were still on the Ribs so I know it wasn't my Glue job. The wood just needed to move. Then I decided to leave it alone until after the winter and fix it in the spring after the Bass settles from the dry weather.

So, don't build the Ribs so strong that the Top or Back becomes the first victim.

[Ken McKay]

Ken and Matthew thanks. I am leaning towards no cross bracing on the ribs whatsoever, but I must consult the three guru's of bass repair.

Ken you make a good argument for very light or no bracing. How about just 4 "crackstopper" braces from front to back positioned about equally on each side?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

Ken and Matthew thanks. I am leaning towards no cross bracing on the ribs whatsoever, but I must consult the three guru's of bass repair.

Ken you make a good argument for very light or no bracing. How about just 4 "crackstopper" braces from front to back positioned about equally on each side?

I yield my time on this Rib question to the two gentleman from NY, Arnold and Jeff whom I would ask if I needed such advice. Ofcourse, It costs me a few lunches here and there but hey, ones gotta eat, right?

[Ken McKay]

Okay I will get a few photos together and ask the question, should I start a new thread or put it here or in the other cornerless thread?

Plus I don't mean to exclude anyone else, all responses are helpful.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

Okay I will get a few photos together and ask the question, should I start a new thread or put it here or in the other cornerless thread?

Plus I don't mean to exclude anyone else, all responses are helpful.

Well, this thread is Cornerless Italian Basses. If the shoe fits... If not, it should go in the other 'general' cornerless thread.

[Ken McKay]

My grandmother was Italian, does that count?

[Matthew Tucker]

Ken it appears your grandfather was Scottish, so maybe it belongs in the School of Scottish Cornerless Double Bass Bagpipes thread ...

[Brian Glassman]

Check out this Italian copy:

http://netinstruments.com/picture/?p=31377.jpg

BG

[Ken McKay]

Thanks Aarnold.

That bass Brian linked to looks like a german bass with no corners. the arching looks different than any Italian I have seen. The proportions also look like a typical german gamba without corners.

[Matthew Tucker]

Can you explain to me what looks German about it?

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Can you explain to me what looks German about it?

+1,
I am going to guess that it has something to do with the immediate but very gradual slope of the arch on the top from the edge, but I'm just guessing. Come on, give us the goods you guys. How can you tell?

[Matthew Tucker]

The only things that I can see are

1. the bass is in germany
2. the colour looks a bit german

I can't smell it, myself.

[Ken McKay]

Originally Posted by David Powell

+1,
I am going to guess that it has something to do with the immediate but very gradual slope of the arch on the top from the edge, but I'm just guessing. Come on, give us the goods you guys. How can you tell?

Yes, this is why I think it is german and not italian design except cornerless of course. There appears to be no recurve in most areas and also what Matthew said about the color. Plus the general shape and proportions.
I am no expert though on identifying bass though.

[Ken Smith]

There are many many English, Italian and French Basses for sale currently in German shops from all vintages. Being in Germany during the time of sale has nothing to do with the origin.

The only two countries I know of that have ever produced Guitar shaped basses was either Italy or Spain with Italy being the originator but parts of Italy were under Spanish rule at one time. Many old Spanish makers are of Italian dissent as well and many or then Violin makers there copied mainly Strad, Guadagnini, Guadagaini, Guadagnini and some Gagliano. I looked thru a Spanish Makers book yesterday at Biase's and he pointed out all these great Spanish makers and how Italian looking the fiddles were.

The Germans have copied many many Italian instruments and a few English as well. Most copies are Italian BUT with a Guitar shaped Bass bringing maybe less than the value of a Violin model Bass or even a Gamba, why on earth would the Germans make an Italian Guitar shaped copy?

It does not make sense to me and the re-curve theory or arching's, please.. there are so many styles of making that the first school we blame for oddities or quick work is usually the Italians. Very few Italian Basses have fine work matched to that of their famous Violins. Now sound, thats another story all together.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

Thanks Aarnold.

That bass Brian linked to looks like a german bass with no corners. the arching looks different than any Italian I have seen. The proportions also look like a typical german gamba without corners.

The Gears look a bit French to me but the Bass, smells Italian but could be Czech or Hungarian as well if recently made.

Have any of you seen any Spanish Guitar shaped Basses before? I have been told that although this style originated in Italy, the Spanish makers made many Guitar Shaped Basses as well (probably in the 18th and 19th century). One dealer I know thinks that many of the Italian attributed Cornerless Basses are probably Spanish. A few years ago he said my Bass was Spanish way before I owned it and commented it was a great sounding Bass and had a beautiful Varnish as well. Coming from him, I take that as a thumbs up on my most recent purchase which by the way, was my biggest to date.

[Martin Sheridan]

Ken,
What is the length of the fs on your cornerless bass?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

Ken,
What is the length of the fs on your cornerless bass?

Short but you will have to ask Arnold to measure them. He has the bass now and is fitting a plaster mold for the Top arching on the G side which was depressed over time. The Bassbar side is fine thankfully.