Show your Extensions!

[William Stephens]

I've always liked the look of hat peg tuners....that is until I had an extension installed on my current bass!

The G tuner is positioned perfectly to stop my hand in it's tracks when reaching back for the D and Db on the extension!

I wonder what others have done in this situation? at first I thought I'd just learn to cope with it, but I can easily see myself making some sort of "modification" in a brief moment of frustration


I wonder about the history of fingered extensions....
As far as I understand it the early ones were exclusively mechanical, staring in germany around 1880 or 1890 and then sold commercially by Max Poike.

I had my extension made by Mike Hart in Suffolk, UK who has probably made more fingered extensions than anyone else over here.

He told me he made his first in 1971 after a player returned from the states where he had seen Ron Carter play. I think in those days the norm over here was the Fawcett-type mechanical, although these days they are rarely seen in the UK (with the exception of London), Fingereds being the general rule now.

Did the fingered type start as a result of removing the mechanism?

how common were fingered extensions in the US in the 60's and 70's?

Just wondering.....

[Ken Smith]

Ok, in 1972 or so I was in a car accident and my Mechanical Ext. was broken along with the Neck. The Bass was restored by Peter Eibert in NY. When I went to pick it up it had a fingered Ext. with just the E-latch. Peter opted for that rather than to try and fix my Mechanical one. The Bass was way way lighter and quieter as well.

Now, on your latches which I have played on other Basses you cannot quick-flip easily with the edge of your fore-finger/palm-strike like I can with my ebony-fingers. Also, the tension cannot be adjusted as minutely either.

I see others using 2 or 3 fingers to 'lift' the closed latches to open the Ext. partly or all the way. I can run my hand back up there sideways and knock them open in a flash and then set them easily with one finger.

Speed of usage is a major factor when you have little or no time to open a gate or close one. The Robo's are a nice idea but work too slow for my taste and hurt my fingers/hand when trying to open them in a flash like I can my Ebony's.

I don't know the exact history of the fingered extension but if you ask around in the UK shops you might hear a few stories. I have the 3-set Elgar books and in either 1 or 2 he talks about extension ideas. This was written in the 60's so it was in use easily by then. Being 'in use' and being commercially available are two different things.

[Ken Smith]

Ok, separate subject here. Your Bass looks to have the German type hatpegs. Two of the Bassists in the Philly Orchestra (Robinson and Rosengard) have hatpegs on their Italian Basses with Chromatic Extensions by I think Robertson's which are very similar to the ones I have by Arnold. BUT, their Basses have the Italian style Hatpegs which do not stick out as much as the German ones. I have the Italian ones on one of my Italian Basses now in restoration. Look at the pics below to compare.



I have seen many German hatpeg 'be-headed' to size down to the Italian style ones. You can cut the 'hat' portion off at about 1/4" after the metal housing and slightly round the edges and then paint it black with a marker. No one will call you the executioner..

[Abe Gumroyan]

What are your guys' opinion on chromatic "b" extension ? Likes or Dis-likes ?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Abe Gumroyan

What are your guys' opinion on chromatic "b" extension ? Likes or Dis-likes ?

Why would you bother with a B-extension? If one time every few years you might need it you can just tune down from the C. If not, expect to hit some doorways from time to time and carry the extra weight around 99.99% of the time when it's not needed.

Many 5-string players actually tune the low string to a C instead of B as well. This keeps you from having to shift during fast runs on the low string. When playing octaves like in a Brandenburg the perfect Octaves and fifths tuning for the B come in handy.

I personally see no need for a B-extension at all.

[Abe Gumroyan]

My sentiments exactly. A colleague of mine installed a B extension from a shop that shall remain nameless on his Roth double bass ad had to cut off the B portion because when he stopped his C capo is would rattle horribly. When he took it to his repair person a year after he installed it to solve the issue, the problem was the fingerboard was arching under the pressure and the "hump" happened to be at his C capo. So now he has a C extension. I told him if and when you play Pines of Rome just tune it down a half step lol. I think the problem arose from the flimsy fingerboard because of the ornate carving under the board. It left no mass for support. Ken what do you think ?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Abe Gumroyan

My sentiments exactly. A colleague of mine installed a B extension from a shop that shall remain nameless on his Roth double bass ad had to cut off the B portion because when he stopped his C capo is would rattle horribly. When he took it to his repair person a year after he installed it to solve the issue, the problem was the fingerboard was arching under the pressure and the "hump" happened to be at his C capo. So now he has a C extension. I told him if and when you play Pines of Rome just tune it down a half step lol. I think the problem arose from the flimsy fingerboard because of the ornate carving under the board. It left no mass for support. Ken what do you think ?

What do I think? I thought I said it all above in my last post. If you are referring to the construction issue or the Pines' I will say this. I have played the Pines. It has a split Bass part for those of you that have not played it in an Orchestra. The Top parts quarter note Pizz B,B,B,B.. like forever.. a page or more from what I recall some 5
years ago. The bottom part is half notes bowed B-,F-..etc. with/under the Low Bs... I played this on my lowest B of a 4-string playing the low B on the A-string. I was using my 7/8 Shen then and that Bass had some punchy bottom. I think the B an octave lower would get lost in space. It was however written for a 5-string Bass like is usually played in Europe. The B-F- bowed part would then be up and octave on the B and a flatted 5th up on the Low F. Maybe Respighi was going for 'Mud' as the color of the sound..

On the Extension construction I think I heard Arnold comment about this same problem. The Extension itself bending/bowing forward from tension and becoming a problem. Necks themselves with Ebony fingerboards Bend under tension and have problems. Why wouldn't an Extension made the fraction of the strength bend as well under a single longer string? It will and it does. make it a B which is quite a bit longer than a C and it will bend much easier. make it with maple and a thin Ebony veneer-like fingerboard and you are asking for trouble even with a C-extension.

To be practical and reasonable the best Extension is made from Solid Ebony and goes down to a C note. That will be all anyone needs ever including that once or twice in a lifetime an orchestra bassist might get to play the Pines. Imagine having this B extension and you are the one playing the Bowed part.. lol.. What a waste, huh? Scream, yell, kick, cry.. hey, you are playing on the right, that's your seat.. Play the bottom B/F bowed part..

So, my choice are the Extensions like what I have on all my Basses. My favorite is the first chromatic one Arnold made for me and my Martini which is also pictured on Arnold's website as well. I guess he was proud of his work on that Bass as well.

[Justin Leonard]

All ebony ext, sliding nut, was fingered but added capos.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Justin, how did it feel sinking that last putt to win the British Open? I had no idea you also play the bass!

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Justin Leonard

All ebony ext, sliding nut, was fingered but added capos.

This is a C or B ext? The E latch looks off to be in tune. Does it close parallel to the string? Did you save a lot of money using those generic latches as opposed to hand made Ebony ones to match your E closure?

I have tried those on other peoples basses and when I reverse 'ridge hand' it to open them up on the fly they hurt or almost cut me IF I can open them. The rounded Ebony fingers just feel so much smoother whacking them when in a hurry as I don't usually use my fingers as clamps to move them open, just the side edge of my hand/fore finger/knuckle.

This is the first tunable Chromatic Ebony fingers C/X that Arnold made for me using tunable Brackets;
And this is the one Jeff made for me just before that using similar brackets;


Then, Arnold had some more brackets made up and made these two for me back to back;


I've had others made from both Jeff and Arnold and the ones they currently make which have slowly evolved are the best I have seen anywhere as far as function and workability goes. Well worth the difference in price if you are serious about what you put on your bass.

[Eric Hochberg]

Curious, do the hatpegs get in the way when using the extension?

[Justin Leonard]

The E latch is open on the picture, its a b-ext. i was playing it and my phone rang so since i was holding bass i leaned it forward and took the pic with my phone. my latches are also adjustable along the extension, they are the ones from basscapos.com which to me look almost exacly like the ones from the american (non-original) stop makers. and the leather on them makes a way better sound than fingered, but i think thats just the bass as it(the bass)was able to play an A with a loosened E string. as far as opening and closing on the fly i usually plan out what stops i'll need and when i forget they aren't a problem to use either my finger or thumb to open. the tension can be adjusted on them as well in case i change to strings of a different tension, i like the ebony stop too but the capos are more flush and i dont have to worry about them sticking out off the side of scroll.the hat pegs arent a problem but i did find on the beeth 5 Allegro (pg 56 if u have the O. Zimmerman complete parts book thats yellow) a slight angle if standing is helpful or sitting works best. its not needed but helps. or fingering 2(E)4(F)2(E)1(D)0(C) works to avoid grazing the hat peg. its original so its not coming off,lol.

I've checked out/played the other materials used for capos especially the ones from Robertsons, and the KC Strings (even the Lamarrio) ones and these add far less weight and dont tilt the bass over (i will mention they are great and should be matched to the players physical capabilities and instrument) . I saved way more money than is posted on most installers websites by getting fingered ext and then deciding to add capos, but according to basscapos.com, alot of widely known shops and installers use them. http://www.basscapos.com/installers.html

[Robert Anzellotti]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

... Did you save a lot of money using those generic latches as opposed to hand made Ebony ones to match your E closure?

I have tried those on other peoples basses and when I reverse 'ridge hand' it to open them up on the fly they hurt or almost cut me IF I can open them. The rounded Ebony fingers just feel so much smoother whacking them when in a hurry as I don't usually use my fingers as clamps to move them open, just the side edge of my hand/fore finger/knuckle.

This is the first tunable Chromatic Ebony fingers C/X that Arnold made for me using tunable Brackets;
Then, Arnold had some more brackets made up and made these two for me back to back;

I've had others made from both Jeff and Arnold and the ones they currently make which have slowly evolved are the best I have seen anywhere as far as function and workability goes. Well worth the difference in price if you are serious about what you put on your bass.

Ken, Ken, Ken... Generic? No, Justin has the real deal installed on his bass. There are some cheap copies out there, like the ones you have on your basses. BassCapos were the first to use an adjustable U-slot design for the mounting bracket. In developing the bracket I worked to create something that was both highly adjustable and aesthetically pleasing. Your copy brackets not only look like a car part, but they don’t appear to adjust laterally. This adjustability is important for getting performance just right. You want to be able to angle them a bit forward for higher action and camber, and back a bit for lower, flatter setups.

You talk about sharp edges and hurt fingers. No one else has complained. Leather is actually softer than ebony, if I’m not mistaken. You clearly have a bias toward ebony fingers. That’s okay. Bassists who feel this way can always use my brackets and have their luthier make the fingers. Also, I have a generous return policy. If my BassCapos were as bad as you say, then I would think that many bassists would have asked for their money back. So far, not a one, and I’ve been selling them for over fifteen years. Ken, you’re all alone out there.

[Ken Smith]

Ron, Rob, Rob, Rob...You're a funny guy.

My capos adjust finer than your twist around ones.

By Generic I mean you BUY them and put them on. You can't BUY the Fingers on mine from a store. Mine have hand made Ebony fingers, rounded without any sharp edges at the end.

I have played yours and they are not as comfortable to use as mine. Also, the Ebony is lighter in weight than the rubber covered brass. Just check the specific gravity between ebony and brass and compare, please!

You invented the screw type adjustment? Well then, they are copies if that's the case!

It is good for Luthiers out there that can just stick something on an extension and not have to make it by hand. Much much easier to do and cheaper labor wise. It's just not as good in my opinion.

I am not alone out here on this. Most people with professionally made C-Extensions (all of it) are professionally employed and too busy to talk on Forums. Between rehearsals and concerts they have to practice.

[Robert Anzellotti]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Ron, Rob, Rob, Rob...You're a funny guy.

My capos adjust finer than your twist around ones.

By Generic I mean you BUY them and put them on. You can't BUY the Fingers on mine from a store. Mine have hand made Ebony fingers, rounded without ant sharp edges at the end.

I have played yours and they are not as comfortable to use as mine. Also, the Ebony is lighter in weight than the rubber covered brass. Just check the specific gravity between ebony and brass and compare, please!

You invented the screw type adjustment? Well then, they are copies if that's the case!

It is good for Luthiers out there that can just stick something on an extension and not have to make it by hand. Much much easier to do and cheaper labor wise. It's just not as good in my opinion.

I am not alone out here on this. Most people with professionally made C-Extensions (all of it) are professionally employed and too busy to talk on Forums. Between rehearsals and concerts they have to practice.

Ken, Ken, Ken,

Okay, I'll bite.

Adjustability? One turn changes the height by 1/24th of an inch. That is the rough adjustment. From there you can adjust the vertical position or angle of the mounting bracket on the extension via the screws. Your brackets don't seem to offer this flexibility. What do you do for adjustment, add washers?

Weight? I never talked about weight. Sure ebony is lighter than brass, but still I bet my fingers are lighter than yours. My standard finger (including threaded stud, and there is no nut) weighs 18 grams. Also, LEATHER, no rubber!!!

"stick something on"? Well that was the whole idea of my product. Why should a luthier (who is not a machinist or engineer) have to make something like this over and over again, one at a time? Do the best luthiers always make their own endpin sockets or tailpieces? Does doing so improve the instrument? Also, how is it that your copy brackets are not "sticking something on"? Is each unit custom made? They all look pretty much alike too me.

"You invented the screw type adjustment?"
I didn't really invent anything. I was, however, the first to employ U-slots for C-Extension mounting brackets. The idea seems obvious now, but I was doing it commercially for like 12 years before any copies appeared. As far as the "screw adjustment", if you mean adjusting height by number of turns, then I'm still the only one who does it.

"Most people with professionally made C-Extensions (all of it) are professionally employed and too busy to talk on Forums".
Yeah! and many of them are enjoying a high quality closure device - made by me!

Ken, I know that I won't turn you around on your opinion of my product, but I do respect you for letting my posts stand on your forum. I'm probably doing myself more harm than good by writing here anyway, but best wishes!