The 'D' Neck issue..

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

The current "standard" for a D neck is for the first finger to encounter D on the G string at the heel when said first finger is directly across from the thumb. I also was taught the Simandl "claw" where your second finger is across from the thumb, but current teaching seems to have standardized a more relaxed left hand technique where the thumb is either across from the first finger or hanging back some toward the nut. I have one client who uses the Streicher method and whenever he plays one of my necks he swears it's an Eb neck! His bass has a really flat D.

What it all boils down to is setting up the heel so the player is comfortable. Good players get used to anything, and many don't even know what "D neck" means. When necking a bass to be marketed, I believe it should be set up to the current "standard". Wood can always be removed, but you can't put it back.

This is what I thought but I don't agree on the method change of how to measure a D. In my opinion Arnold, and you know first hand how I personally feel about it, there is 'nothing' 'relaxed' about stretching to play across the 5th Position (Simandl 'Claw' V) with the first finger on the F of the A-string and the 4th finger playing the octave F on the G-string with all the other notes in between on the D-string etc. Playing Jazz often crosses the upper strings more often when playing octave lines and riffs while in Classical playing it is done less often while moving around. Playing the 5th position on the E string is a real strain on the E-string with a D-Neck as they call it now.

I am aware of the various modern styles of playing today mainly incorporated for Solo playing but having played in Orchestra now for the last 5 years, I haven't seen the need for me to personally change anything. I played a fine old Italian Bass one day in Philly as it was brought off stage (Philly Orch. Bass) and noticed two things. This Orchestra veteran's Bass had not only an Eb neck but a string length near 42.5-43". I mentioned about the Hell being cut way down and the length being long. His reaction, "I like it that way"!.. So, I guess I am not alone with the so called Eb Neck preference. My Hart has it but my Gilkes is sort of in between.

I have been practicing with the Batchelder since I wrote this thread and find that I prefer the Eb Neck (as it's called now) for all types of playing, Orchestra and Jazz..

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Yes, many players like an Eb neck because of enhanced ease playing in those transition positions. But the D has become a guidepost for many, and is now the standard. Another thing to consider is that many bass bodies will not accept an Eb neck because there won't be any heel left, especially if the maker designed it with a D neck in mind. In fact I have a bass on my bench which was made by a contemporary maker. The owner insisted on an Eb neck and the result is a very short heel with little strength, as there is a high overstand. That's an accident waiting to happen.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

Yes, many players like an Eb neck because of enhanced ease playing in those transition positions. But the D has become a guidepost for many, and is now the standard. Another thing to consider is that many bass bodies will not accept an Eb neck because there won't be any heel left, especially if the maker designed it with a D neck in mind. In fact I have a bass on my bench which was made by a contemporary maker. The owner insisted on an Eb neck and the result is a very short heel with little strength, as there is a high overstand. That's an accident waiting to happen.

Yes, I can see the design problems but I have longer Neck'd Basses with the Eb as well. The problem with them was usually the String length. My Loveri has a longish Neck so the easiest fix was a 'false' Ebony Nut adjoined to the regular Nut. I also did this years (actually decades) ago on a 7/8th Bass by Anton Wilfer, 1936/39? which were the early Juzek Master Art Basses. Many of the earlier Germanic Basses had 43-44" string lengths with Eb Necks. This was quite common.

Still, I have come to realize that the Eb Neck for me is my favorite for playing the upper positions and up into TP as well. I also like easy playing Basses with under 42" lengths.. Like having your Cake and eating too. Sometimes you just can't..

Arnold, thanks for your detailed and educational explanation.

[Pino Cazzaniga]

This is amusing, somehow.
Here the current preference is the one you said, Ken, the thumb at the heel, the second finger opposite, the first finger plays D on the first string.
The trend is for a little stretch of the first finger toward the nut to reach D.
And we name it D neck.
There are many long neck grafts, made until the '60, where in the same position, thumb at the heel, second finger opposite, the first finger plays Eb. We name these Eb necks.
I don't know why they made these long neck grafts, probably they wanted to reach more notes with the hand at the heel in orchestra playing, and a longer string lenght for the gut strings they used these days.
Anyways, the D neck as we call it here, or the "proper" D neck you said, allow us some freedom to find a better balance for middle positions, where some variables are neck height over the top, body outline near the neck, string lenght, bridge height, stop lenght and so on.
It's over the standard, a good reason to play and work on basses, I hope.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Pino Cazzaniga

This is amusing, somehow.
Here the current preference is the one you said, Ken, the thumb at the heel, the second finger opposite, the first finger plays D on the first string.
The trend is for a little stretch of the first finger toward the nut to reach D.
And we name it D neck.
There are many long neck grafts, made until the '60, where in the same position, thumb at the heel, second finger opposite, the first finger plays Eb. We name these Eb necks.
I don't know why they made these long neck grafts, probably they wanted to reach more notes with the hand at the heel in orchestra playing, and a longer string lenght for the gut strings they used these days.
Anyways, the D neck as we call it here, or the "proper" D neck you said, allow us some freedom to find a better balance for middle positions, where some variables are neck height over the top, body outline near the neck, string lenght, bridge height, stop lenght and so on.
It's over the standard, a good reason to play and work on basses, I hope.

So, across the Ocean or rather Ocean'S, my idea of the 'Original' 'D-Neck' verses the 'Modern' 'D-Neck' can be easily explained;
Original D = Modern Eb.
Modern Eb = Original E.
Modern D = Original Db.

I can't tell you what a struggle it is going over the shoulders to the F# or G when climbing up the Neck of a modern D vs. an Original D or modern Eb. I sop much prefer the Eb at the heel for the lower positions to Thumb positions. Takes a half step out and some physical mass as well.

[Calvin Marks]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

So, across the Ocean or rather Ocean'S, my idea of the 'Original' 'D-Neck' verses the 'Modern' 'D-Neck' can be easily explained;
Original D = Modern Eb.
Modern Eb = Original E.
Modern D = Original Db.

I can't tell you what a struggle it is going over the shoulders to the F# or G when climbing up the Neck of a modern D vs. an Original D or modern Eb. I sop much prefer the Eb at the heel for the lower positions to Thumb positions. Takes a half step out and some physical mass as well.

A good rule of thumb I've found is if you can play with your thumb at the heel of the neck, D-1st finger, Eb-2nd finger, E-3rd finger, 4-4th finger...Ie. The Mahler Solo is played with full finger extensions, or if you have tiny hands/massive string length, you can use a small thumb pivot behind the neck. Also...Having the ability WITHOUT pivoting your thumb at all, to play four finger technique starting on D, Eb and E is imperative.

I prefer an Eb neck because I like to have my thumb behind my 2nd finger. Most Viennese basses and students of the Streicher technique will use a bass with an Eb neck.

An Eb neck keeps your hand position consistent all the way up the string. I always play with my thumb behind my 2nd finger. If I want to play a D on the G string all I have to think about is thumb in the crook and the first finger behind it, just like it would be if I were playing in half position...

Then again, I don't even know if this is called an Eb neck or not...This is confusing!


Eb neck - Thumb in crook, 2nd finger across from thumb on Eb, 1st finger behind thumb on D.
D neck...Then what's a D neck?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

A good rule of thumb I've found is if you can play with your thumb at the heel of the neck, D-1st finger, Eb-2nd finger, E-3rd finger, 4-4th finger...Ie. The Mahler Solo is played with full finger extensions, or if you have tiny hands/massive string length, you can use a small thumb pivot behind the neck. Also...Having the ability WITHOUT pivoting your thumb at all, to play four finger technique starting on D, Eb and E is imperative.

I prefer an Eb neck because I like to have my thumb behind my 2nd finger. Most Viennese basses and students of the Streicher technique will use a bass with an Eb neck.

An Eb neck keeps your hand position consistent all the way up the string. I always play with my thumb behind my 2nd finger. If I want to play a D on the G string all I have to think about is thumb in the crook and the first finger behind it, just like it would be if I were playing in half position...

Then again, I don't even know if this is called an Eb neck or not...This is confusing!


Eb neck - Thumb in crook, 2nd finger across from thumb on Eb, 1st finger behind thumb on D.
D neck...Then what's a D neck?

What's a D? Which century? To me the Neck SHOULD be one way, Eb at the heel, D with 2nd finger, period. The you can play the 4th finger across all 4 strings easily with the 1st still in place. With the modern D it's a strain especially on the E and A strings. Descending passages always makes it more noticeable climbing down from TP to reg. pos.

Mahler is played as it is played, no one way. I play D-1, pivot to E-2 and F-4 for the first 3 notes. I rarely use the 3rd finger. I find pivoting to be easier and more accurate than trying to stretch my fingers in an unnatural position. Intonation is my concern, not convenience.