The 5-String Double Bass

[David Powell]

This one is a real beauty and I thought since we are obsessing over the devilsome issue of bowing a five string (pizz just seems pretty normal), I thought we should consider the difficulties in getting a good arco set-up on this one.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by David Powell

This one is a real beauty and I thought since we are obsessing over the devilsome issue of bowing a five string (pizz just seems pretty normal), I thought we should consider the difficulties in getting a good arco set-up on this one.

Looks like a '70s Pollmann but in a 6! The one 5er I borrowed was a big Gamba Busetto with a 41 1/4' String Length and fully decorated with Carvings but without the Rosette in the Top. This Bass must be for either a Jazz player or a soloist. I would love to see someone play that next to me in an Orchestra Rehearsal. The Double Stops will tell me when he's having trouble...lol

[David Powell]

I know this verges on insanity, but a French luthier has made one with 7, and the player does use a bow. His primary work is improvisational jazz. I have one of his older recordings using a 5-string, but this is the instrument he's playing now:

and here is a photo of the outline (different instrument, same maker, Antoine Leducq) compared to a gamba:

It reminds me of Savart a bit. At the risk of this becoming the quest for "one that goes to eleven" I'll stop with the lucky number. It's a bit over the top, but you have to wonder if one plays all double stops on these things with so many strings.

[Ken Smith]

Cool stuff. When they start writing for the 7 string in Orchestra, that's the day I retire for good..lol

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Cool stuff. When they start writing for the 7 string in Orchestra, that's the day I retire for good..lol

Doubtful that will happen in our lifetimes, so play it to the end of the piece!

But going back to the Bach Brandenburgs: I think there are some with only a continuo score, and I'm guessing that those or even the ones with the DB score might have been scored for G violones with 5 or 6 strings. It's hard to tell because the coninuo was sometimes done on a harpsichord or whatever was available. There is of course still the question of which octave was intended, but I haven't found much on that. And that is not as significant an issue as that those parts were probably scored for an instrument that through crossings could play the octave passages more easily. Apparently violones could be tuned several ways, but all fourths wouldn't be too different from the more standard 3 fourths, a major third, and then two fourths. Just a crazy theory. What is a good source for scores of the Bach pieces? I'd love to give those a look. [EDIT: Never mind, I found them. Public domain. Love the Internet!]

[David Powell]

OK, I finally have satisfied myself on this question, while I'm sure it will remain one of scholarly debate for some. After all, one must write a thesis on something to get a PhD! Malcolm Boyd's book on the Brandenburg concertos suggests that a violone grosso was required, probably one with only 4 (?) strings that had the lowest string tuned to C', but that different instruments were used depending on which Concerto it was. In fact 3 different instruments are referenced. The scores I was able to find online (William Rust) suggest that there were violone grosso, violone, violone de ripieno (that distinction evades me as it seems to be contextual). Certainly these distinctions had some specific meaning in Bach's day. Boyd's book is copyrighted material, but if the link works it takes you to the specific page that talks about this. He also clears up the question of which octave the score refers to. But in the end the part is more important than which instrument we play it on. We don't have 3 to choose from today unless we collect rare and expensive reproductions. In fact what can't be done on either a 5 string or a 4 with C extension can likely be played on a cello.

Planyavsky and Borgir would seem to support that the instruments in use in Germany in Bach's time were indeed tuned in 4ths across all strings like our modern 5 string bass, but were tuned to different notes. An instrument like that 6 string Pöllmann would probably cover all of the Brandernburgs with ease, (except for the pesky unintended double stops). A 5-er would be the next best thing but require more shifting. A C extension? Bach would think that was a curious thing, I think, but it might work in a pinch for one of the Concertos specifying the violone grosso.

I know this is a somewhat cross thread response, but the usefulness of a 5 string instrument is certainly part of this. If I had to choose one and only one Double Bass instrument to play, maintain, and express myself on, it would be a 5 string one tuned in 4ths. But that little Pöllmann violone would be a nice second fiddle. And it appears that tuning in 4ths across all strings might be quite acceptable from a historical perspective of German tradition. A nice little 6 string acoustic bass guitar for some of the Brandenburgs!

[Anselm Hauke]

Originally Posted by David Powell

I know this verges on insanity, but a French luthier has made one with 7,

ok, i´m the winner: 38 strings!
http://www.bazantar.com/instrument.html

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke

ok, i´m the winner: 38 strings!
http://www.bazantar.com/instrument.html

I thought about mentioning that since Mark Deutsch has modified a 5 string DB. It's a really interesting instrument. I've had his CD for over a year. "Fool" is an interesting meditational composition that is conceptually related to the life cycle. Some moments are a bit arresting, perhaps disturbing. I enjoy listening to it in the odd moment it and there is some good double bass playing on there. In the USA, it would probably be classified as "New Age" music. The Bazantar sounds very unusual. It's like a huge viola d'amore. One of the most interesting things on his site is his chart of the harmonic series vs. equal temperament. It's one of the best graphical depictions of pure harmonic relations I've ever seen.

If you haven't heard the whole composition, Anselm, it might be worth a listen, or at least I was quite pleased with the CD.

[Jeff Tranauskas]

Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke

ok, i´m the winner: 38 strings!
http://www.bazantar.com/instrument.html

Anselm, I agree.
You are the winner!

[Jeff Tranauskas]

Has anyone ever played a 5 with a high C?
I might restring the mighty funf with a high C in lieu of a low B.
I'll never leave first position again!
My slab 5 is currently strung this way and I really like it.

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Jeff Tranauskas

Has anyone ever played a 5 with a high C?
I might restring the mighty funf with a high C in lieu of a low B.
I'll never leave first position again!
My slab 5 is currently strung this way and I really like it.

Once upon a time, the Kay bass company made a 5 string model that was strung with a high C. It was after a famous player Greig Stewart "Chubby" Jackson popularized that tuning and it was known as the "Chubby Jackson" model. They are fairly rare, but turn up now and again. It is a possibility to string it that way for sure, but who wants to be stuck in first postition? I'd rather play at the heel any day. Just my preferences, obviously it worked well enough for Chubby the other way.

[Jeff Tranauskas]

"Several years ago I saw the 2nd one which was a Bob G/Bulgarian Bass. Must have been the older models with the shiny Lacquer finish and low neck stand model. I played only a few notes on it and that was it"

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jeff Tranauskas

Attachment 245

"Several years ago I saw the 2nd one which was a Bob G/Bulgarian Bass. Must have been the older models with the shiny Lacquer finish and low neck stand model. I played only a few notes on it and that was it"

That's 'THAT' Bass? Sry, don't remember it much at all. I was packing my Amp up while Don was setting up to sub for me at a rehearsal. I was in and out in 2 minutes..

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Jeff Tranauskas

Attachment 245

"Several years ago I saw the 2nd one which was a Bob G/Bulgarian Bass. Must have been the older models with the shiny Lacquer finish and low neck stand model. I played only a few notes on it and that was it"

Here's the big sister of "that bass" Just a few close ups of this bridge I carved about 2 years ago.

[David Powell]

OK, so here's what she looks like uncropped:

[Ken Smith]

Not a speck of Rosin on the strings or bridge! How do you keep it so clean?

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Not a speck of Rosin on the strings or bridge! How do you keep it so clean?

You know that just doesn't happen to me. I've posted about this problem several times. I just never get any rosin anywhere but on the strings. And then it's a powder that just wipes off. I actually wipe it off pretty frequently when I'm practicing. But I'm finding with the black hair I need far less rosin. And it is pretty hot so I'm using the Hard Oak for the first time. It works great with the black hair.

I did scrape the bridge clean with a blade about a week ago, but it really didn't have much rosin on it, just some surface dirt from going in and out of the case. That's the first bridge I carved. Hopefully the last too. I had blisters every where I had skin.