Any ideas what this bass might be (worth)?

[Johannes Felscher]

Hello everybody,

first of all this is my first posting on this great forum, and I hope that some of you might have some input!
I was offered a bass which is in good shape, supposedly German and around 80-100 years old. All repairs seem to be done well. The bass has a destroyed German label of "Wilhelm Uebel - violin & bass repairs and...(something like that)", hard to tell if that's the actual builder or someone who did repairs in the past. Another label is from Kolstein (I guess I should go and ask him too after the weekend): Restored in 1999.

I didn't take too many pictures, but you hopefully get the idea. The body seems to be 3/4, maybe even slightly on the small side and sounds puts out a lot of fundamental for it's size, good projection, very articulate and great lows, especially when played pizz. Scale lenght is 42,5".
The asking price is 10k, and even though the bass seems to be a bit more sophisticated than many generic German shop basses I've recently tried (another thread on those to come), I'm not sure if the price tag is justified. I know it's gonna be hard to judge from the very few pictures, but by the time I had it at home for trial I didn't feel like taking too many photos, would become handy now.

Any input on this one?

Johannes

PS: On the picture with two basses it's the one in the front. I hope you don't mind the mess of sheets underneath, didn't expect to make these accessible to anyone. ;-)

[Johannes Felscher]

PS: On some of the pics the varnish seems a bit too orange, I think the close-up of the bridge gives the best idea of it's color though slightly underexposed.

[Ken Smith]

It is a German Bass in the 100 year range. I have a bass about 99.99% exactly the same. I would venture to say from the same shop in Germany. Mine is in restoration so I can't show it to you but it is just about the exact bass. For a moment, I looked twice to see if it was mine but it's not strung up yet. It was poorly restored in the past which caused its current internal collapse. It too has a Kolstein repair label. It also has an appraisal as an 1860 Mirecourt French bass. Although these are French type solo model influenced basses, it does not make them French. The outer linings on your bass and how it miters across the neck joint is typical German work. The appraisal says typical Mirecourt 'lipping' which I don't subscribe to. I have never in my life seen a certified French bass with outer linings. French looking basses with outer linings are made in Germany.

You have there a German bass from about 100 years ago or so and that is a fair price IF the work inside does not include a sprung bass bar which mine did or a sunken top at the bar side or any other damage that would cause it to need the work done over again but correctly this time.

If you can borrow the bass and take it to Arnold, Jeff or myself you will be able to get a good idea what the bass needs or does not. There is no one else between NY and Pa that I would add to that short list for review.

Getting opinions on line as to the worth of a bass on the internet is no better than getting medical advice and acting upon it afterwards.

[Johannes Felscher]

Dear Ken,

first of all: thanks a lot for your quick and profound reply, I really appreciate it! Being in NY without a car, stopping by yours or Arnold's shop isn't that easy after all, but that's something on my list for the near future.

Anyway, funny coincidence that you happen to have the (very) same bass, but you may rest assured, I didn't secretly take yours. :-)

The bass seems to be healthy as far as I could tell at the first glance, but as you would probably guess I didn't have a strobe light and / or any other equipment handy, so I couldn't judge what the bass bar looked like. Speaking of a sinking top: it looked fine, but there is a minor oddity, not sure if that qualifies as what you mentioned (didn't attach the pictures on with my first posting, there were two too many)...it's more visible on one of the pictures, I guess you'll get the idea though (it's the instrument on the left on both pics).

And btw., I agree that a first hand luthier's inspection shouldn't be substituted by a quick "online-inspection" in general, this was the best that I could do at this point, might be able to take the bass home once more for a few more days...

[Ken Smith]

I also mentioned bass specialist maker/luthier Jeff Bollbach. He is in Long Island and one of the few that I trust with my best basses. Go see him with the bass being that he is closest to you.

On that pic of yours above you can see from the F-hole sticking out that the Top wood is below it. That means it has sunk by the bar. Some basses just settle a bit and safe to leave as-is. It is that needed trip to a luthier like Jeff that will let you know if you are safe or not.

On my bass the string length was also long and closer to an Eb neck. The only way to make it more marketable in todays world is a new neck graft shortening the playing length overall. My goal is for 42" or slightly less.

Is there any way to show a pic of that torn German label inside. There are many makers named Uebel in the 18th and 19th centuries but only one listed as W.Uebel in the last quarter of the 19th century, not listed as Wilhelm though. He (W.Uebel) was from Markneukirchen Germany which was later East Germany on the German/Czech border. I suspected my bass to be from that area rather than further south in Mittenwald mainly because of the roundback. Most old Mittenwalders are Flat backs. There is some slight possibility that his shop made these basses of ours but also a 50/50 chance at this point he either repaired it or the lable doesn't belong to the bass. The dates of the late 19th and early 20th centuries pre-WWI fits W.Uebel's period as does the area in which he worked.

Another larger Orchestra model Bass was sold not once but twice as a 1850-60's French Parisian Bass by another big shop in NY in the last couple of decades as well. I had a chance to examine that bass and could see just as with our basses how a dealer could 'loosely' call it French but in reality, the work is totally German. Style of design does not make it the nationality of its looks. It has to fit the work. When you see a bass like that regardless of size or design with outer linings and it is marked as French, be on the alert that this is probably 10 out of 9 times false.

Many fine basses were made in Germany that were not Shop or Factory basses but rather hand made instruments just like a fine French, Italain or English bass only it's German. Many of the nicer German basses are called something other than German, possibly for profit reasons but also due to mistake in identity. The countless factory basses imported to USA in the last century has clouded our judgment as to what a better quality German bass might be.

One more related story if I may. I was at the first rehearsal (of 3 or 4) for a Mahler 1 concert in which the orchestra was enlarged for this production and 3 new basses were hired in as subs. The guy on the end (I placed him there..lol) had a dark varnished sloped shouldered bass like ours but with a flatback. It had 100 year old Mittenwald gears on the bass like those I have seen on Neuner & Hornsteiner basses, the exact ones and the purfling ran all around the top and back as well like on French basses and our twins as well. So, to poke around I asked him on the break "hey, do you happen to know what pedigree your bass is?" asking him in a respectful manner as he was a total stranger to me. I was willing to bet my house that he bought it as a French bass. He replied "It's a Lupo!".. .. Lol.. Ok, now he was not only lied to at the time of sale but his bass was placed up there name wise with the likes of Panormo and Strad. Lupo was the French Strad and was a violin maker for the most part if not exclusively. There is no such thing as a Lupo bass that I know of and Lupo predates his bass by about a century. Also, that style of Bass is mainly closer to the 20th century, however I have seen a couple of claims that some of them were Vuillaume basses that were actually French but sloped shouldered.

So, it seems almost a common practice that any nicer made German bass that looks French in design becomes one once it passes thru a dealers hands when it goes to market.

Please, don't sell me a Chevy Impala as a Lincoln Town Car. It just isn't, plain and simple, not even close.

In closing, my friend that was sold a Parisian French Bass that was 30-40 years later made in Germany was looking a bit disappointed shortly after hearing my assessment. I then went on to add, "be thankful that it IS a German bass. It sounds better than most of the French I have heard." On average a similar model French bass and a German made example of the same outline, the French for some reason sell for more. First off, it takes the idea of 'factory' out of the buyers mind if it's not German as that's what most of us know about German basses here and second, it implies it's higher up the pedigree chain. This is also totally false.

I have used several Italian and English basses in Orchestra but I have also proudly played on a few German Basses on the job as well. Currently I am gearing up to use my Mittenwald Bass for part of the season after getting it back from Jeff Bollbach with a beautiful C-Extension on it. It can sit beside my better basses and do just as well on the job.

I can just as easily call my Mittenwald bass English or Italian as I have seen similarities in both. It is just what it is and I am proud to label it as such.

[Sam Finlay]

Too often German basses are misrepresented as French, English or Italian. Sometimes it's an honest mistake. I'm sure that I, myself, have been fooled by the "style" and missed some indicators of German craftsmanship. Sometimes, basses that were made in what is now The Czech Republic are called "German." I can't blame anyone for making that mistake because the schools of construction are so closely related and the political borders have been so blurred over the last few centuries.

Sometimes the mistake is not what is seems to be on the surface. For quite a long period of time, Germans did "rough work" for known makers all over Europe. Sometimes a bass that is, for all intents and purposes, an English bass willl have been "started" by German craftsmen who were very skilled and would work for very very little money. Instrument-making is an art, but has rarely been done for free.

The business has always looked for ways to create quality products for less money. To think otherwise is naive.Today, the same thing is happening with Hungarian, Romanian and Chinese makers. A bass might come out of the shop of a French, English or American maker with an "authentic" label affixed to the back that began its life (if you will) in the workshop of a skilled worker in a country that could do the work inexpensively. Once the bass was finished by the maker whose name the label bears, the bass is officially "made by" that maker. This is a reality I am uncomfortable with, but have had to tolerate as to not call into question the work of men and women who make their living providing fine instruments for the market. It is the maker's final work -- whatever that might be-- and his or her skill at choosing fine materials, models, and techniques that the player is investing in, I have come to believe.

As Ken says here and as I (and Jeff and Arnold and Andrew and Barry and Gary and Aaron and Aaron and Don and Bryce) say(s) often, an instrument is a good instrument if it is constructed well, maintained diligently, produces a good sound consistently and is comfortable to play. Some of these criteria are objective and some are subjective. A person can describe some of these things and some of these things need to be experienced to be understood. I, more often than not, find German basses to be fantastic investments because they are almost always constructed well and, to my tastes, often produce a nice sound while never being priced at the top of the market.

Ken, you should come and see the Mittenwald bass that Mike and Sprocket are finishing up now. It will been completely restored here and has had a long career in orchestras. From what I can tell, it will be a cannon.

Johannes, that bass you have is great, but we encourage you to have it looked at by another shop before you purchase it. The person who owns it now brought it to us because they knew that we would represent it fairly. We always try our best to get prospective buyers to put their opinions contexts other than the one we have here at the shop. Although our collection is huge, and the luthiers here are trusted by most of the world's jazz and classical bassists, there is no substitute for another well-informed opinion. We don't want to sell something that you will not like. That is not a good business model. David Gage has been here for more than 30 years. He has not lasted that long looking to pass something off for a one-time sale. If you find that another dealer or luthier disagrees with our assessment of condition or value, we want to hear that opinion and often we want to talk about with you and the seller of the instrument to make sure that the deal is fair on both sides.

German basses rule. Get lots of opinions when spending a lot of money (duh). Play something that you like, not something that someone says you should like (double duh).

Sorry for the long post,

Sam Finlay
DGSI

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Sam Finlay

Ken, you should come and see the Mittenwald bass that Mike and Sprocket are finishing up now. It will been completely restored here and has had a long career in orchestras. From what I can tell, it will be a cannon.Sam Finlay,DGSI

Sam, thanks for stopping by. In a subject like this I don't see how any informative post can be 'long'.

It is funny that I happen to have a bass nearly identical in style and make to the one posted above. Unfortunately, mine was mis-repaired in another shop years ago and also appraised and sold as a French Bass.

Now that you are here, please tell me you agree that no confirmed French bass ever has outer linings. Only 'French-like' shape or 'around' purfling.

When ever someone shows me a bass with outer linings and tells me he has a French bass, I immediately feel he was mis-led and possibly overcharged.

Regardless of the outline and purfling style (not the actual purfling used), doesn't the outer linings make it 100% obvious that it's NOT French?

Your thoughts please on that..

Also, on that Mittenwalder you have, I just want to see pictures of them. I have one of my own and it doesn't always get along with my English and Italian basses in the same rack.. lol

By the way, my Mitten-bass actually looks to be an English Tarr-ish outline. However, I think it's just a bass they made on that style and not to be shipped off to England. The Varnish under the repairs seems old German to me. What do you think about it?

As always, I would be more than happy to come by and see the basses that come into your shop from time to time but getting out for even Lunch seems to be difficult these days. I made it down once a couple of years ago so I am sure it will happen again. For me, it's actually easier going up to Arnold's and avoiding the city traffic. Coming out of the tunnel is one thing but driving around the block to go back could take an hour. Last time I was in NY, it took me an hour and a half to get from the Williamsburg bridge to the Tunnel. Then the same time to get home from there. 100 miles to Pa. in the same time as 1/one mile from bridge to tunnel. Oh, and free parking here. Bring the basses here and we can have lunch.

[Sam Finlay]

Yeah,

I've never seen a French bass with outer linings. I once saw a French bass with outer linings that were added by a shop in Germany because the original ribs had been so badly damaged by worms. 'Twas funny looking, to say the least.

The French models, of which there are a few distinct versions, are very clearly identifiable, if even only by the wood-choice. To me, the lining issue is a clear distinction, as is the size and shape of the blocks. While French purfling has been borrowed by a lot of other schools and the long French frog has been echoed in a few German and English basses, the inner-features like the blocks and cross-bars are unique to France.

Your Mittenwald bass is very nice. I've admired it before. It does have a very Tarr-looking outline. That very round model, in place of the longer, rectangular mold more commonly used in these basses calls a lot of attention to itself. Maybe it was a bass that Billy Tarr ordered and never received.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Sam Finlay

Yeah,

I've never seen a French bass with outer linings. I once saw a French bass with outer linings that were added by a shop in Germany because the original ribs had been so badly damaged by worms. 'Twas funny looking, to say the least.

The French models, of which there are a few distinct versions, are very clearly identifiable, if even only by the wood-choice. To me, the lining issue is a clear distinction, as is the size and shape of the blocks. While French purfling has been borrowed by a lot of other schools and the long French frog has been echoed in a few German and English basses, the inner-features like the blocks and cross-bars are unique to France.

Your Mittenwald bass is very nice. I've admired it before. It does have a very Tarr-looking outline. That very round model, in place of the longer, rectangular mold more commonly used in these basses calls a lot of attention to itself. Maybe it was a bass that Billy Tarr ordered and never received.

Attachment 1793

Attachment 1794

Attachment 1795

Looks very Neuner'ish in style and with lower rounded corners (as Elgar calls them correctly). Just a rough attribution. It could be just about any maker in the period. I can't say much more form those few pics. Is that varnish original?

Have you seen a Tarr that looked like my bass with outer linings like that. I think they measure 1 centimeter (in metric) where they are un-altered if that helps and not 3/8" (made in inches) as previously listed after measuring and examining the linings again last night. I have heard from more than one source that some Tarr's were made in Germany in one way or another. W.Tarr did 206 basses as did Prescott on record. Arnold is up to about 24 on the bench I think. Maybe they didn't have labor laws then, you think? Or Golf vacations come to think of it..

[Johannes Felscher]

So it seems like I have neglected the thread I started myself, having had a pretty rough transition between my old and new internet provider - bad timing for having cancelled phone internet right before that (I think I will just re-activate it, if it's slow or not).

Either way, Ken:
Thanks again for tons of input - I didn't get to look at this bass since I last posted, but I agree that it was probably W.Uebel, not necessarily Wilhelm - maybe that was a phonetic extrapolation being German myself.

I again have to admit that I can't really comment on the quality of the repairs that have been done in the past since I didn't look inside, but now since it's not a secret anymore that the bass is being sold through Gage's shop (hi Sam!) I have enough faith that they had a thorough look at the bass before they took the consignment. All repaired cracks looked trustworthy to my, so I wouldn't have worried about those too much.

As far as the German / French topic is concerned I have to admit that it isn't my first priority - I wouldn't mind having a German bass, I would rather mind having a mediocre bass - even though most (supposedly ) french basses I've played were appealing to me as well in sound and looks.

Sam:
Thanks for joining this thread, I really appreciate your input and valuable opinion. I would agree that it can actually be a good value while not being entirely sure about many instruments in that price range. The "Ueberle" bass you're offering seemed to perform very well to me, lot's of depth and volume, nice timbre - pretty much everything. Nevertheless I see so many instruments around 9-10 k out there which are really nothing more than (quoting Ken) your average "plain jane" German factory bass from around the 1920's (unlike the instrument we're talking about) which might sound ok but don't even look nice, just plain - are people really paying these these prices on a regular basis? Maybe that's just something I gotta accept, at least for the bass market in the NY metropolitan area? But I feel like for 10k you shouldn't necessarily expect an amazing instrument, but at least something fairly decent. Depends on personal expectations, too I suppose.

Anyway, one more thing for Sam: I agree that this bass is a very good bass, I was just hoping to find something a little bigger, just because I generally like their feel and the slightly slower yet deep response, that why I am still hesitating a bit, hopefully not too long.

Johannes

[Sam Finlay]

Hey Ken and Johannes,

First to Johannes:

It is a great bass for its size. But it is a smaller bass, so I'll understand if you look for a larger bass that "moves more earth."

I understand your feelings about bang for the buck, too. $10,000.00 is a lot of money, no matter who you are. We never allow consignees to inflate their asking prices and we always forward reasonable offers (no less than 20% off) from serious buyers. I think that, based on my "formula" for valuation the bass is prices reasonably, but I would be happy to pass on an offer for you, if you think that the price is too high. We do it all of the time.

And for Ken, we've bounced the Neuner name around and have not discounted. Because that shop employed so many craftsman and involved so many out-sourced parts, I doubt that we could honestly attribute it as such, but it certainly looks the part. It is even farther along now in its restoration and I am even more excited about its sound.

I've never seen a Tarr with linings exactly like yours. In fact, all of the Tarrs that I still have photos of have no linings at all.

I think that Arnold's work is carefully completed by one guy who also does a lot of restoration and set-up. He couldn't possibly make as many basses as Tarr or Prescott, thank God. We're lucky to have Arnold making high-quality, individual basses. And, in fact, if you ask me, we're living in the "golden age" of bass-making now. With makers like (I'm sure I'll forget one) Kai Arvi, Ed Maday, David Weibe, Stefan Krattenmacher, Seth Kimmel, The boys in Ohio (too many to remember the names of in one sitting), Roberto Salvianti, Martin Penning, Hannah Mayne, Hachez, Rumono Solano, The Krahmers (Poellman), The Gruenerts, Jean Auray, Patrick Charton, Christian Laborie, Sergio Scaramelli, and with what is going on still, today, in Cremona, the world's collection of basses is vastly improved. In a couple of hundred years when these basses are antiques, it is my opinion that their average will be far better than what we have access to today. You'll see.

Keep looking until you're happy Johannes. I look forward to seeing what you get.

Thanks for the forum, Mr. Smith. Hope to see you at our Open House on September 25.

Sam.

[Ken Smith]

I will see what I am doing then other than putting in my normal half a day, 12 hours..

On your bass in restoration, yes Neuner is a loose fit at best under the circumstances. Mittenwald school fits better. As with my bass, we can do the same as I have listed already. I know it is not at all English but certainly an English influenced model from what I can see. If the folklore is true and some Tarr's were imported from Germany (in part or whole) then they would have had the means and motive to ship a few of their own Englishized models over to English shops as well to sell in that market. Business is business. Teach someone what works for you and your market and create a competitor at the same time.. lol.. It happens all the time.

[Ken Smith]

I just got my bass back that I said was identical to the bass in the first post here labeled Wilhelm Uebel.

On my bass, in writing under the Tailpiece (on it) says, "V. Venegas, Uebel".

The repair work is beyond my dreams. Beautiful work and the former LONG 3/4 is now proportionate to it's size at about 41.5" length. The new neck, block cut and deeper neck set allowed this. Plus, a huge discovery I missed. This is the ex-Victor Venegas bass! Mike MaGee that did the work on it worked at Kolstein's a long time ago and remembers this exact bass coming in with Victor several times over the years.

Mike told me that when a bass came if for a restoration Barrie would write under the TP who's bass it was and in this case, what bass it was as well. Maybe because Victor owned several basses I assume.

Also, personally this means a lot to me. Victor was a good friend of mine and a mentor. We even did set-up work together on basses of his students and friends. He would being them to my house, assist me with the work (I did most of the important stuff, lol) and deliver the bass back and collect the money. He also straightened me out with my Bow hold per-John Schaefer (NY Phil) and got me to go back and study again which changed my life. Schaefer would not take any more students at that time so I studied with his top student Bill Blossom, now in the NY Phil. for about 35 years or so.

So, this bass being Victor's old gigging bass means a lot to me. I know he had two others but this looks like it was his work horse for a period of time.

[Ken Smith]

My Uebel is now back from restoration and the Page on line. Have a look and compare them if you like. The Block was cut to lower the length as well as a shorter D-stop neck grafted in so it may look shorter but the body is the same.