Mystery bass

[Jess Ting]

I posted this on TB forums, and it created an off-topic storm with very little useful advice produced. So let me try this here.

I picked this bass up locally. Found it on cragslist. It appears to be an old german bass with a violin shape. I am curious as to what your opinions are on the age and origin of this bass. Thomas Martin saw the photos and suggested it was a Saxon instrument.

It needs neck work but the body seems solid. No open cracks or seams.

Thanks in advance.

JT

[Jess Ting]

Here are additional photos.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by jessting

I posted this on TB forums, and it created an off-topic storm with very little useful advice produced. So let me try this here.

I picked this bass up locally. Found it on cragslist. It appears to be an old German bass with a violin shape. I am curious as to what your opinions are on the age and origin of this bass. Thomas Martin saw the photos and suggested it was a Saxon instrument.

It needs neck work but the body seems solid. No open cracks or seams.

Thanks in advance. JT

Yes, I agree with Tom on this. I watched the Thread over on TB as well when you posted it there and then got a bit confused when 'King' was mentioned.

Why, well this Bass of yours looks like it has distress and cracks that you don't see on a Plywood. Also, if there ever was a King made as a carved Bass in USA or a German import, I have never seen one. I am no expert on King basses at all so let me say that now. Actually, I am no expert on any basses really, just a bit more experienced than most.

This Bass looks re-finished as well. The edges have been softened from the sharper make of the original German work. That could have been the reason why it looked like a Ply King as Plys do not have the same beaded edges and corners that Carved Basses do.

Kings and other American Basses were not shape or style conceived independently. They are copied from European Basses that were either original like the German Gamba or the 20th century German Violin model with sloped shoulders like your bass is which is actually taken from the Italians or Italian Basses that were cut down to their slope shouldered shape.

The design on the Bass is just that. A design. It is mostly found on German Basses from the late 19th century thru the first quarter or so of the 20th century. I think this is a similar design as seen on the backs of the King and American Standard Basses. Having that design does not make it a King as King took it from the Germans. I have even seen it on at least one English Bass but from the later 19th century and that Bass looked Germanic in ways as well. Obviously it was a German type model if not a German carcass bought 'in the white' and completed in England. Most people looking at that Bass thought it was German but with a closer look it seemed that English was possible as it was labeled, just that it was not a typical English Bass of the period.

Back to your Bass, it greatly resembles the imports brought into the USA in the early 20th century that were either labeled 'Morelli' or 'Pfretzschner'. I had a Morelli labeled Bass that was 100% identical to several Pfretzschner basses I had seen. Recently, I have learned that both 'brands' were imported or rather sold-as under either name from the same importer-wholesaler. I say 'brands' because the paper labels were actually placed inside the basses here in USA. Some of the Morelli basses were branded internally. Some were labeled as well and some only labeled with no brand at all. I have seen two styles of basses made meaning that they were made either differently in the same shop-factory or by two different shops/factories. The Gamba models often more plain looking integral bassbars and the violin model with regular bar and nicer wood throughout. There was a shop/maker in its 3rd generation with the name C.F. Pfretzschner (Carl Friedrich I, II and III) and also a commercial factory/business named A.G. Pfretzschner. The basses with the Pfretzschner name were labeled G.A. Pfretzschner. In all of the books I have including the ones specifically about German makers, not a single refrence is seen of a Pfretzschner with G.A.. This to me is obviously a fictitious name for importing and re-labeling factory instruments. The basses branded Morelli are reported to have been made by Karl Herrmann who had a shop of some size commercially. His shop either made them in whole or contracted them out. I was told by one old German maker personally that worked in Germany before moving to New York that Herrmann only branded his better insturemnts as 'Morelli'. So, different opinions exist about these German 'imports'. One thing is for sure, the Gamba shaped Basses sold as either Pfretzschner or Morelli from the same importer/distributor raises suspicion. They could fill the order and rename the models or makers if desired by just putting the Morelli label inside the basses intended to be Pfretzschners. Who would know any better back then?

I talk about this Pfretzschner/Morelli relationship as far as imports go because your Bass fits that exact mold. I would say the wood is not quite nice enough for what I have seen branded Morelli but could be the violin model either intended for the Pfretzschner label or just a similar style Bass.

Conclusion; North Germany, c.1900-1930. Thats the location and period that I see.

There will be NO such off-topic storm over on this Forum as experienced on TB. By the way, I played the Storm last night (Beeth. 6th) in concert with an Orchestra that I sub in occasionally. I calmed it down to a ripple and a breeze with those fingered 16ths on the C-Ext. of my Gilkes.

[Ken Smith]

Show some pictures here of the back and upper back/neck button.

Like these two here you posted on TB;


I could be wrong about the wood grade on this because of the quality of the pics so show us a few more in better lighting and exposure. Also, that upper back design was also used on some of the German made Hawkes basses.

[Jess Ting]

Thank you so much! That was incredibly helpful. I was actually about to buy a Thomas Martin instrument when I stumbled across this one. I put that purchase temporarily on hold until this instrument can be played.

I have been meaning to come and see some of your old master basses, but time is extremely limited for me. I will wait and see how this one plays when I get it back from Gage. I'm guessing I will just turn around and sell it and proceed with the Martin bass. The wood of this german bass is very beautiful in person - much nicer than any other German instrument I have seen of similar vintage. I will take better photos in daylight and post them. I'm just curious who did the work on this bass and if it really was refinished or just french polished. It hasn't been played for decades. There is a label on inside from a violin shop - The APTO Company.

Cheers!

Jess

[Ken Smith]

Before you buy a new Martin Bass, come see me. Maybe that is the bass for you and maybe you have just not seen enough basses. People often just buy what they are exposed to. From about 1975 till a few years ago, I had not visited any shops at all and was totally unaware of what was available and the prices. When I started re-hunting for a bass when I went back into playing (only part time now), I was almost shocked at first at what the prices were.

There are so many new Basses out there and many of them just 'shop basses' where they have the shop or persons name in the bass but made in Romania, Hungary, Germany or even China. Shop basses were not as broadly made internationally 30-40 years ago. It is important a buyer knows exactly he/she is actually buying. Take out the name or label of a bass or at least mentally and look at the bass real carefully. Then play it and listen to it. Sometimes the name in the bass is more audible than the actual sound.

Shop carefully. Like buying a Car, it is very easy to buy one but not so easy to sell one. The Dealer always has the upper hand. If you but a classic instrument at a fair market price then you have something fairly original and not one of 10-20,000 units made. These have a more attractive demand in the industry then serial number 9,243 of who knows how many made.

My Martini which is an early 20th century Bass like yours is from a documented maker where it is recorded just how many of each instrument he made. There are 45 basses made by him on record and mine I know is the earliest known to date that I have been able to find. If I had some German, Czech, Chinese, Romanian factory Bass, the numbers would be in the 100's to 1,000's if not higher. Then, it's just a bass, size, shape, condition and sound. No pedigree, just wood with sound.

Get second and third opinions and ones that are not affiliated with the maker or brand. "Birds of a feather flock together". Find another flock!

[Joel Larsson]

Ordering your own bass does seem very nice... I've been thinking about doing that, too. The more basses on the market, the better for everybody else about to buy a bass! So, be prepared to keep it throughout your life; it won't sell for the same amount of money you spent. Have you actually played a Martin? Keep in mind the other makers out there, the Pöllmann brothers, Peter Elias, and so on. They'll make a bass for about $20k or slightly more, I think. Perhaps a lot more; I'm not too up to date with the currencies right now... I hope to try a Martin next week, or at least I'll see Mr. Martin himself on a course. I won't bring my own Pöllmann so I couldn't compare them properly, but I'll be happy to give you my thoughts.

Anyways, I quite like that bass you have there. Probably a shop bass, yes, but a nice shop bass. (You can find pics of one that I have in the 'Speaking of restorations' topic that's probably the age of yours, but is a (cheaper) Gamba model.) A friend of mine has another early 20th century bass labeled "Markneukirchen", a brand associated with a dealer who bought instruments from local, not (yet) master luthiers and probably factories too. His bass is nice. Needs a new neck, though... but the wood seems fine, sound is good, and it might actually turn out good after a restoration. Perhaps good enough that he may not have to buy an even better bass in order to win an audition, but you see this is the problem - as a student, you can't afford to spend money on something that might not turn out good enough; in a few years you'll have to be able to win an audition, and if your bass isn't good enough, you won't be able to do yourself justice.
The "Markneukirchen" label in his bass is associated with a dealer who bought instruments from local luthiers who weren't master makers, but probably from factories too; perhaps, if my friend is lucky, the guy who once built his bass may have been rather skilled. So, it COULD become quite okay. Problem is that you never know. The fact that the bass is rahter old is likely to have made it sound better than it did when it was new, problem is that lots of work often needs to be done as these instruments never seem to have been taken proper care of, and a restoration usually won't pay off. Been there, done that: My small Gamba model has a pretty nice sound, but not enough to justify the amount of money spent. Nothing is certain - especially if it is factory made. I like the fact that you already dropped your bass off at the luthier's, though; probably not very wise if you want to save your bucks, but I'd probably do the same. Could never stand seeing a bass go to waste...

Long rant, not much said. Tell us about the result, and how it compares to other instruments in the $5-12k range! When will you get it back?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

I'm the one who posted that the bass LOOKED like a KIng, after another TB'er forwarded the opinion that the edges looked delaminated, like plywood, and that he thought it was a Kay. My guess was based on a couple small, dark pics posted on TB. I stand by my opinion. It does LOOK like a King, even if it's not. Jeez, who put that Polyurethane all over it?

[Jess Ting]

Thanks for the input Ken. Are you available Saturdays? I recall that I looked on a map and your location was a good 2 hours from Manhattan. Otherwise, I would have come by already. 4 hours travel time plus a couple of hours to try basses = the entire day for me. I'd need a serious fun pass from the wife in order to leave her the entire day with our 3 young children on a weekend...

I think you are probably correct that I haven't tried enough instruments yet to make the best choice. Perhaps I'll hold off for now and spend more time visiting other shops, including yours. It just seemed to me that the Tom Martin bass is a good value. I tried a newly-made Italien instrument selling for $35k that I didn't like half as much as the Tom Martin. Even a high end Shen lists for $12k these days.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jess Ting

Thanks for the input Ken. Are you available Saturdays? I recall that I looked on a map and your location was a good 2 hours from Manhattan. Otherwise, I would have come by already. 4 hours travel time plus a couple of hours to try basses = the entire day for me. I'd need a serious fun pass from the wife in order to leave her the entire day with our 3 young children on a weekend...

I think you are probably correct that I haven't tried enough instruments yet to make the best choice. Perhaps I'll hold off for now and spend more time visiting other shops, including yours. It just seemed to me that the Tom Martin bass is a good value. I tried a newly-made Italian instrument selling for $35k that I didn't like half as much as the Tom Martin. Even a high end Shen lists for $12k these days.

I have done Saturdays and evenings as well but only when pre-arranged. Just call me directly at the Shop to discuss it. I have two fairly modern Italian Basses (Lombardi, 1981 and Sirleto, 1992) and one English (Lott copy, 2007/8). All of them are currently in restoration getting fixed and getting improved. None of them will reach the 35k mark in my Shop even after all the work is done. I prefer the Basses that I sell be either in tip-top shape or be sold as-is if necessary but with full disclosure of all the work that is needed. I have one old Bohemian Bass that has had restoration work but could use some TLC that I am selling as-is well under the 10k mark. Basses can be so different from one another so choosing which bass is the best deal for you or which shop is the best to deal with if there is more than one that has a bass that you like is not always such an easy decision.

On the prices of Basses you have to take into consideration the 'shop' profit. A 12k Shen might cost 8k in real. 'List' means nothing really. It's just a starting point. Also, shops usually sell mainly consignment basses when it comes to the older ones so the condition is usually how it was delivered by the current owner. Shop owned inventory might be different as they have to power to invest or not invest in their own product restorations. All of the Basses in my Shop are mine so I don't need anyones permission to have repairs done or to set prices.

I can't tell you how many Basses I have bought from shops that needed tons of work that were either privately owned or shop owned. You must know this business and must know basses to make a well informed buying decision. I trust very few people in the buying and repairing game as far as basses go. Just because the car looks pretty on the Lot doesn't mean it's good under the hood.

[Brandon Tuomikoski]

I am sorry about the post on TB. I was part of the fight.

But I am here now and away from the madness at TB.

Here you should get the best answers possible.

Now whoever thought it was a King, was far off from what people here are saying, as did I on TB.


Its a nice bass, and if you have the time and $$ you should try to get it playing again! Good luck!

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Brandon, leave your ego at home. Think hard before you press the "enter" key. It was me who said that bass "looked" like a King. I have already stated this in public (look above). There is nothing wrong with making a guess and not being right, especially when looking at a two-dimensional representation of an object. Brandon, old guys like me enjoy mentoring younger folks, as long as they are respectful and thoughtful in their interchanges. You have already rubbed me the wrong way, but that does not mean I won't try to help you in your quest for knowledge.

[Ken McKay]

It does look like an old King in some ways. I see it too...

Basses are far under-priced for the amount of work involved in making, restoring and maintaining these beasts. Prices are rising as a trend but still very low compared to celli and even violas.

We are lucky to have top notch restorers like Arnold and others, Jeff Bollbach, and a Nick Lloyd, in the mid-west and eastern USA and the few scattered throughout the rest of the country.

You want to injure yourself? Buy a bass from Craigslist (not you Jess) with a poor set-up and play it 3-9 hours a day!

Professional bass players know the value they have in a good luthier and are willing to pay.

To anyone even thinking about spewing some nonsense,

Respect goes a long way! I want to hear what Arnold writes, here and elsewhere. Please don't test his "saintly" patience by soliciting opinions or collecting things to corroborate your opinion. We need him!

[Jeff Bollbach]

Saintly?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Saintly?

[HughFosterWood]

I've haven't posted here much. Most of the time I just read the wealth of info that y'all post without even loggin in. Same goes for the TB place. I was hopin that Mr. Tuomikoski wouldn't do here what he did over there but seems he's on his way to no good. Thanks Mr. Schnitzer for all the good advice and info you bring. I trust Mr. Smith will keep it civil.

[Brandon Tuomikoski]

I am very sorry. I never meant to be rude in any way. Sorry Arnold. I hope you will accept my apology.