and..
 

Jason Sypher just found this and sent it over. An early Deerfield Prescott. This is rare because it has the Cello FFs he used and I have only seen them on the 4/4 cello model Basses. This is a Busetto with the Cello FFs.. A first for me..

http://www.metmuseum.org/Imageshare/...MI1980.492.jpg

With this info from the Met Museum;

This information may change as the result of ongoing research.
* This database record may be in completed or unedited.

Attributed to Abraham Prescott
Object Name Bass Viol
Date ca. 1820
Geography Deerfield, New Hampshire, United States
Medium Wood
Dimensions Total L. 200 cm (78-3/4 in.); Body L. 120.6 cm (47-7/16 in.); String L. 109.6 cm (43-3/16 in.); Upper bouts 52.7 cm (20-3/4 in.); Center bouts 28 cm (11-1/16 in.); Lower bouts 72.9 cm (28-11/16 in.)
Credit Line Purchase, Rogers Fund, 1980
Accession Number1980.492

Thanks Jason..

Hey Ken, this relates back to our discussion in posts 20-24 of this thread. I did see a light colored, large busetto w/ cello f's and a Prescott-like scroll, like this bass, at Barrie's once about 5 yrs ago. Perhaps they were the same model, that would make two.

BG

ok..
 

But, not all sweeping FFs with Busetto corners are Prescott either. The other Yankee makers copied just about every part of Prescott in one way or another. The Scrolls of Prescott are quite consistent from what I have seen with only 2 slight variations. If the Scroll is original to that bass and its not a Prescott Scroll, chances are it's one of the other makers. Just my opinion here.

from Michael Glynn, copied to here.
 

This was posted in another thread but thought it would be valuable as well to copy over to this one.

As I've mentioned on that "other" bass site, I believe the rounded lower corners and f-hole designs on that instrument are derived from the viola d'amore family. Another thread here showed a bass by Woodbury and Burditt that also shows some of these more exaggerated viola d'amore type features (for example, compare it to this viola d'amore), but with standard f-holes. This bass makes me wonder if at least part of the inspiration for the rounded lower corners on many early American basses came from true viola d'amore style instruments, rather than simply Mittenwald basses with rounded lower corners. Here is a modern reproduction of a violone made in Nuremberg in 1640 with strong viola d'amore features as another comparison to the Woodbury and Burditt instrument.

Incidentally, while looking up some stuff on Woodbury and Burditt (and it seems their basses may have been actually made by William Conant) I found this interesting notice from the "Fourth Exhibition of the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association" in 1844, mentioning a musicial instrument competition that included instruments from Woodbury and Burditt, Prescott, Dearborn and others. This notice from their first exhibition in 1837 mentions basses and cellos by Prescott, the Dearborns, J.B. Allen, and Henry Prentiss. It also mentions that, regarding the basses and cellos:

"They have been constructed upon such models of instruments of foreign manufacture, as the makers chanced to meet with; and, where these models have been departed from, the changes have all been made without reference to any other use of the instrument, than as mere accompaniment to the voices in common psalmody."

Ken, very interesting reading. THNX!

Bromberg
 

[quote=Ken Smith;258]The Banjo guy? No, never met him. All I have to offer at the moment is the Batchelder Bass but enjoy talking about it.

Ken,
David Bromberg is probably the formost authority on American Violin makers and probably possesses the largest collection. Back in the 60s he was on many popular albums as a back up player; guitar and sometimes fiddle. He later attended and graduated from the Chicago School of Violin Making. He used to come into my shop fairly often when I was in downtown Chicago. He was traveling all over the world then buying and selling instruments and bows. Last I heard he had opened a violin shop in the east.
Great Thread!

ok...?
 

[quote=Martin Sheridan;16703]But, does this guy have 'anything' at all to do with Basses? I have never heard his name mentioned associated with a single bass, ever.

Most of the American makers that made basses made basses. A few made mainly Violins and some basses. The Wenberg book has about the most published on American makers than all the English and European books combined. Stil, I find some makers missing like the actual Batchelder that made my old bass.

As with any book, if they made mainly basses, they might be left out of books when written as the names are not known about to them.

Boston's mid 19th century Asa and Jay White made both as did the elder August and George Gemunder did in Springfield Mass. before moving to New York.

+
 

Not as far as I know. He was interested in my basses in a general way, but he's really a violin collector.

Thanks for bringing so much information together on the American makers, there's a real hole in the knowledge about bass makers generally.

The VSA Journal had an article on some Germans who made basses in Pennsylvania some years back. The black bass above attributed to Prescott looks very similar to their work.

Black Bass?
 

Well, it is believed that the Prescott design is generally German taken from I believe a Hornsteiner or something similar. There were many Germans and English settlers in New England that made Violin family instruments. Mostly Violins and Basses. I have heard of and seen very few if any Violas or Cellos from this period. Cellos in the way of Church Basses yes but standard measured Violincellos we see hardly any from the 19th century Yankee makers. The Violins are all basically European in design. The Basses however have their own Yankee flair. I must exclude the first generation Gemunder brothers that came over made what they knew from France and maybe Germany. George Gemunder of the 2 Basses I have seen are totally French in design and Varnish as he came over here straight from Vuillaume's shop. His older Brother August however of the 2 Basses I know of his (one of which I own) are closer to a Gagliano if anything. Long body with flatback but shorter FFs that you would see on a Neapolitan bass. I am guessing he may have seen one as an example but made smaller FFs for tone and design preference. This Bass looks so Italian I could re-label it and no one would question the provenance.

It is also believer than Prescott used an only English Viol for his long Scroll/pegbox design. His basses were all originally 3-string from what I have seen and the heads can easily take 5 or even 6 tuners in them.

I guess this is what you get generally when makers partly copy and partly think on their own. The first time I saw the G. Gemunder bass I asked if it was an old Bernardel! The first time I saw the G.Gemunder I thought it was Gagliano school bass. The later made NY Gemunder Basses look mainly German to me, imported from there and finished up over here. Without the Label they are German shop basses for the most part. If they were made here then there was no originality at all in the design as they are perfect models of the German basses from the end of the 19th to the early 20th century.

Well anyway, the more you see, the more you know. Thus is the case as long as what you compare them to are correctly known models/makers as well.

I have read that Klotz' designs were the basis for Prescott, not Hornsteiner's.

well..
 

Yes, I have read that too but the last time I saw a Klotz bass it was actually an old Hornsteiner to my eye. And, which Klotz? Klotz was a famous family and the founding family of the Mittenwald school. Why not name all old Mittenwald basses Klotz? I don't know which are real Klotz's, Neuners or Hornsteiners. They all look alike to me. :confused:

Hey, I would love to see a REAL Confirmed Mathius Klotz Double Bass. The last tine I saw something that looked like a M. Klotz, it had a famous Italian name.

I'm pretty sure Prescott pre-dated the Hornsteiner shop.

oh?
 

Not really so Maestro. The Hornsteiners date from the early 18th century and the commercial firm of Neuner & Hornsteiner dates from 1750, about 70 years before any recorded Prescott bass. Perhaps here in USA we have only seen the later made basses as the old ones are stuck in the Central European Orchestras and not going anywhere. The Neuner family dates from even a century earlier, the 17th.

Remember that Thread I started called Where are They??

I started that Thread because I knew there were old Mittenwald basses by these families but rarely seen here in USA or on the internet anywhere. They were made but probably scarce in comparision and just not available for sale that we ever see.

Just because a bass is very old, large and has lower rounded corners does not make it a Klotz unless it was made by one of that family.

Klotz
 

I had read that the Busetto cornered Prescott basses were a copy of a Klotz. The Klotz family continued generation after generation. I think I remember seeing a Klotz violin from the early 20th century. Some think the first Klotz studied in Cremona with Amati.

think..
 

Yes Martin, think! It is written that he (the first Klotz maker) studied with someone (I will have to go back and find the name) in Italy that came from Fussen I believe. On the word or name 'Busetto' itself, this I find it hard to swallow. In the Elgar book he doesn't call it Busetto corners. He calls it 'lower rounded corners'. It was later I believe that some bass was named after the maker Giovanni Maria del Busetto. Busetto being a town in Italy. From reading about that maker I see no reason to believe he ever made a Double Bass much less that German looking one named after him that is either in Japan or Berlin. That bass has the form of early Mittenwald basses. The Bat wing FFs are Central European as well, not Italian. If that bass looks Italian in workmanship internally then maybe it's because the early Klotz maker Mathias trained in Italy. This is confirmed Klotz instrument here; http://www.myeasybass.com/publications/p_klotz.html

When looking at the work of del Busetto, what little has been found it seems way to early in time to be anything like that big bat winged F hole bass they named after him. Now what we have is confusion. Maybe started by the dealers as far as who made what or trained with whom including Stainer and the term 'Busetto corner'. What a mess!!:confused::eek:

Busetto
 

I have never found any evidence of basses by Busetto either. We don't know how many studied with Amati because they are not mentioned in the census of his household if they didn't live with him, so I don't think anyone really knows where Klotz learned, but they like to make that Italian connection.
By the way, my cousin is married to an Italian, can I claim my basses as Italian? Sounds like a close enough connection to me, and I could raise my prices.
One that I find amusing is Morrelli who was a German who just used that name. Even his stuff brings more than a comparable German maker from the 30s even though everyone in the biz knows he was German. Any other time I'd remember his real name, but right now that would require me to think; it's been a long day and I want a drink before I do anymore thinking.
best,

Morelli?
 

The Morelli basses were made in a German shop or two or three (over the years), imported into USA and THEN labeled Morelli. Some were stamped in Germany during production I suspect by request of the importer. The maker or shop recorded was Karl Hermann.

On Klotz it is known to a degree that M.Klotz the eldest Mittenwald maker trained with Fussen maker Giovanni Railich that had settled in Padua Italy. Klotz is believed to have trained first in Fussen or Vils or maybe even with Stainer and then spent 6 years in Padua before returning to Mittenwald.

The Families of Klotz, Neuner, Hornsteiner and Baader came one after another sometimes working with each other, in competition of each other or independently. Mittenwald for some time was THE world center for Violin production. This is one of the tangled webs we find in this business. Who did what when or where and to who or with whom.

I bet the Germans over there today could easily put this mystery in order much easier then we can but still, many things were just not well recorded.

As far as what Bass or BassES Prescott actually copied, dig up his grave and ask him!:p

My main point is that it's a bit irresponsible in this business to point every thing 'Bass' from Mittenwald to the Klotz family. They were first but were not alone for long as in the early 18th century, the demand grew as did the makers, families and firms providing instruments.

I was in Mittenwald several years back, and walking around this most amazingly picturesque Alps town, I came upon a beautiful statue in the center of town. Who, you ask, is portrayed there? Matthias Klotz. Maybe somebody with better internet skills can find & post a picture here. BTW, Ken, I think you are right about Hornsteiner. I believe I was thinking of the more modern, commercial Neuner & Hornsteiner basses.

Hornsteiner..
 

Well, like I mentioned in my other Thread Where are they??, these old Mittenwald basses are hard to find. Yes, the commercial ones made for export over the last 100 years or so are not so hard to find but the ones from before 1850 and back a century or so more are mostly still over there I would imagine.

Here is the statue.

http://www.matthias-klotz.de/img/3-0/3-0-Denkmal200.jpg

klotz
 

The newest Howard Core catalog has the picture from another angle.

Klotz was such a big name and there were so many of them that they were also 'copied' in the 19th and 20th century; mass produced crappy violins containing Kotz labels and of course basses too. I saw one about thirty years ago that was clearly a commercial bass with a false Klotz label. It was a good bass however.
Ken, I have a feeling that you're right and that many of those basses are still in orchestras over there. Maybe our German friend can enlighten us on that.

Prescott attributed bass
 

So, Ken, on the TB discussion about the now Upton Prescott in the Hawkes thread, looking at the scroll of that one, it has more turns than the few other Prescott scrolls I've seen pictured including yours, Nahrmann's, etc. It reminds me of the Batchelder scroll a bit. Do you think that is an original Prescott scroll, and if not, who might have made it, assuming it's original to the bass' time period?

Prescott?
 

I think it's Yankee but Darricott and Willard and many others made basses too. Where are they and all the other makers? Masquerading as Prescott's because it's easier to sell if it is.

In my opinion, I have seen more NON-Prescott's named Prescott than actual Prescotts themselves.

A customer came over once and showed me his Prescott. Oops.. Sorry, Not a Prescott that I can see. Shaw, Scotty, Reggie and now this as well as the other bass they have in pieces. How could Prescott have made all these various bass models, F-holes and Scrolls and the other maker's basses are still in the closet?

The early Cello models with sweeping FFs, one with those FFs and rounded cornered 4/4 (aka Busetto) and the other patterns with the short wide FFs that are connceted. Those are Prescotts. The long medium FFs, not his I think. Scrolls for sale? Why not! The French and the Germans did it!

If these were Strads selling in the Millions, it would all be sorted out. At these prices it's still a bass for the money and not a Pedigree purchase. A bass with no name is worth less than a similar grade bass with a name. That's just how it goes. Ca ching....

Pittsburgh...
 

What Book are you reading this from?

"Kschier, George & Sons; Vln maker, repairman and dealer. Firm was est. c.1855. Later was named Kschier bros. George worked there c.1907-1915. Broad Strad model. Brown oil Varnish. Domestic wood. Primarily repairs." (Wenberg)

I would say better than a 50/50 chance that they imported basses from Germany and re-labeled them like the Gemunder's did in NY from what I just read. Does not sound like Bass makers to me.Show me the bass, please!

Is this photo of the Wright Prescott in this photo?

Yes..
 

Same exact bass. Sold at Auction to a UK dealer and ended up for sale at Robertson's. I don't know who bought it but the 'asking' price was a record high for a Prescott.

Brian, this could be the bass you were talking about:

http://www.basscellar.com/inventory.html

They have three Prescotts in their inventory, scroll through and you will find it.

no..
 

Not at all and for many reasons. That is not a busetto, not a large model and not the sweeping 'Prescott' Cello FFs.

I think another one (Prescott) just came up for sale recently and is up at Arnold's. Right now there are at least 9 Prescott/Prescott school basses around for sale. Some in my opinion are not actual Prescotts but similar period Yankee made basses.

Its not the gamba bass that appears when the page comes up. The busetto with sweeping FFs is listed to the left in the inventory, for $45,500. Unique looking bass!

?? 1818 ??
 

Well, I have never seen a Prescott with a date on it, only attributed. Also, I have a copy of the sales records thru 1828 from Prescott and there were very few Double Basses made before 1820. I am not 100% convinced about that bass being an actual Prescott. The Scroll is old Yankee but not Prescott and the FFs although similar are not as well, to me eye at least.

1880's George E. Bryant Bass, Lowell M.A
 

Here is a few pictures of my 1880's George E.Bryant Bass....Yankee's Bass!
George's great great grand daughter sent me 2 pictures of him at his shop, I thought would be cool to post them,

nice..
 

The pictures of that bass reveal a turning point in Yankee Bass making. This bass is a few decades after the arrival or the old Gemunder Brothers. They came separately a few years apart and from different countries as George was working in France with Vuillaume and August came from Germany, his homeland. They later both moved to New York, again separately but the next generation of Gemunder's collaborated as well.

The reason I mention them as seeing a Cello-like shouldered Violin Cornered roundback shows a much higher art of bass making than seen in the Prescott Era. Also, many of the Boston school makers were European trained Violin makers. George Gemunder made 2 Vuillaume model basses shortly after arriving in New England. August made a pair of Gamba roundbacks (one of which I own) and at least one roundback smaller gamba shaped bass. In NY, the son's turned to importing basses from Germany and concentrated mainly on Violins.

This Bass reminds me more of Gemunder influence rather than Prescott with the exception of the tuner plates which again, look beautiful. Enjoy it..

Thanks Ken for the info. I don't really know anything about August and Gemunder, were they Bryant's as well?
I talked to the great great granddaughter and she traced her family back to the 1700's in England, very interesting, George Bryant passed away in 1916.
This bass sounds more like an Italian bass than anything else, the back is really alive, you can feel it on every note, its really easy to play even with the string String length been over 42
Upper Bouts 20 inches
Middle Bouts 14 inches
Lower Bouts 25.9 inches

Large 3/4 or a small 7/8?

Actually it is August Gemunder Snr. and George Gemunder Snr.. They were two makers that mover to Mass. about 1846 and 1848. George came from France where he was working and August from Germany. Both originally trained by their father in Germany. Your Bass reminds me of their work in some ways.

Beautiful bass! Thanks for the interesting post.

Robin Alston
 

Robin just posted some interesting newspaper articles on George E. Bryant, check out this link, scroll down to see it, part of AMERICAN HISTORY
http://thehofmannandbryantfamilyhistory.blogspot.com/

Bryant Scroll?
 

Nando, Much earlier in this thread Ken has said that the scroll on my Prescott Gamba may not be original because it is not typical of a Prescott scroll. However it does appear to be very old and although the brass cheek plates are wider than on most Prescotts it does have the typical Prescott-like Bee Sting shape at the top which are on your Bryant as well.
In fact it looks much like the brass cheek plates on your Bryant! Tuners looks similar as well.

Perhaps it's a Bryant scroll? What do you think Ken?

The back of the two scrolls are not as similar, however. I'll have to post a pic of the back of the scroll to compare.

??
 

I have no idea who made that Scroll. I just don't think it's a Prescott Scroll. Old Yankee basses from Prescott's time were 3-string. Many Basses get their heads chopped off. Back then I am sure the Luthiers preferred replacing the entire neck/scroll over doing a neck graft and saving the original.

Nice basses though, both of them.

J.B. Allen, Springfield, Ma. 1841
 

I don't know why this Bass has never been pictured here. I must have over looked it somehow. Here are a few temporary pics of the J.B. Allen.

Someday before long, as time allows, I will get a full set of pics of this bass up on my DB web page.

The workmanship, condition and masterful *restoration (*by Robert McIntosh, 1999) of this Yankee Bass has to be one of the finest specimens ever seen in the combined categories. The sound of this beauty matches its other attributes as well.

Another JB Allen
 

Ken - Seeing that picture of Arnold's JB Allen made me think of Phil Palombi's Allen. Here are a couple of pictures i found, hopefully they're not too small
Attachment 2218
Attachment 2220

Ok, for some reason the picture of the labels doesn't enlarge, but this page has several larger pictures, just scroll down