#1
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What do you want in a bass ?
Since I'm getting no response on my thread, "Have You Designed Your Own Bass", let me turn it around to you as players.
What do you want in a bass? I know everyone wants great sound, but what do you like in a bass? String length, bouts, shape. You name it. Tell me. It will help me design my next bass. |
#2
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Some makers have been building basses with large bottom bouts and smallish uppers like this photo of a Golia bass. It certainly looks unique and they claim the sound is huge.
Another area of discovery could be woods species. Using lumber with beautiful graining or color could be a welcome change from the faux antiquing most commonly seen. Different woods might evan perform better for a bass, willow? walnut? cherry? Try a different scroll. Animal, human head, etc, etc. If you complete a bass in 6 months or so, enter it in the Makers competition at the ISB convention this summer. |
#3
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I like Busetto (busseto?) corners. Could be cos I have a great pic of Scott LaFaro looking real cool with his busetto-cornered bass? And Rufus Reid's bass looks great with them too.
The scroll is one of the first thing I notice that will make or break a bass for me (aesthetically speaking only). I like a nice decent sized well proportioned scroll. I'm afraid I don't have the vocabulary to fully describe what I mean but the eyes of some scrolls I've seen are sometimes a little off-centre looking, giving the impression that it's a bit flat to one side. Or sometimes the scroll is just too small for my taste. Carved heads can be amazing too. Some of them are works of art in themselves. But for me nothing can beat a good old fashioned scroll (with hat-peg tuners) for looks. Except maybe a Gamba-style open scroll... A nice small design with the purfling below the button can be nice too. Nothing too fancy, I've seen some really nice understated flurrishes. My old teacher in Cork had a beautiful old French bass that had a lovely curve at the end of the fingerboard. It looked really well on his bass. I can't remember if the tailpiece had a matching (or opposing) curve or if it was straight but I think it was the latter. Apart from that, I generally prefer darker varnishes (I'm probably not alone there) but I'm not a fan of the fake antiquing process that is now unfortunately so common amoung violin makers. Anyway, there ya have it, for what it's worth (wouldn't buy many penny sweets I'd imagine!) Last edited by Kevin Harrington; 01-07-2009 at 03:13 PM. Reason: spelling mistake |
#4
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#5
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BIG Question..??
With all of these various demands, what are you expecting to spend on a Bass new or old and what are you willing to spend if you are aware that your wishes are beyond your means?
Maybe it would be good to put an expected or wishful price next to your wish list. You can then see depending on the maker and or/quality what is possible and what is not. Personally, I cannot stand those angled endpins. I like my Basses with as few holes in them as possible. I plugged up one of those angled holes on a Bass that came in and gained about 20% more noticeable volume and depth in tone. I tested this 'dry' before gluing the 'custom fit' Plug in the Bass. Also good to note besides just your wishes is what you will be doing with this Bass as well as what type/level player you are currently. Sometimes, a maker can suggest things you are not aware of as well as exclude a few things that may not be in your best personal interest. Have you ever heard of this scenario? .. Player: Hey, this bass doesn't work as well as I had hoped for. .. Maker: I made exactly what you asked for. .. Good communication and well as understanding between maker and player is a Necessity you can't afford to be without, not a Luxury. Very often, the maker is a better player than the customer and/or works with and for better players than you might ever hope to be. In this case, take the 'Doctor's' advise! |
#6
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Quote:
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Last edited by Matthew Heintz; 01-08-2009 at 03:24 PM. |
#7
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Detachable neck
It shouldn't add much of anything to the price of a bench made DB. Nor will the beefier tailblock. Handmade basses are way underpriced for the time it takes to design and make a custom one. They cost about as much as bench made Cello and even some violins are 25 - 30K.
Ken, I gotta wonder about that 20% change in volume and depth of sound with one little hole plugged at the tailblock area. As far as pure acoustics, pschychoacoustics of bowed stringed instruments it should not make that much difference. OTOH I am sure you don't speak lightly about stuff like that. |
#8
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20%
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Do you believe that F-hole size matters much as far as volume and tone of a given bass? I haven't seen this discussed all that much around here or anywhere else. For the record, I do! |
#9
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F-hole size
No I haven't noticed any correlation of F hole size to either volume or depth of sound. This is easy to test if you cover a portion of the soundhole, it either changes or not.
From what I have seen and heard, the things that do seem to matter are f-hole placement. This might be from their effect on the top plate resonances. Of course this is hard to prove. I am thinking that wider spacing effects the depth because of the flexibility of the plate goes up across the grain when spaced wider apart. This would effect depth of sound the most I think if the f holes are wider spaced. But the air inside needs to be able to reinforce the plate movement or it is wasted movement. So air volume and plate resonance needs to match. More of this can be heard as more fundamental to the tone. Holes in the side of the upper bout don't seem to effect depth or volume much. I have played Arnold's ergo and I heard him say this also. A hole in a place of maximum rigidity of the plates (tailblock) might theoretically highly effected sound. I have read that air pressure is highest there. Since the air pressure reinforces the plate vibration of both the top and back, a loss of pressure could decrease volume or depth. |
#10
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My non-scientific belief is that overly large f-holes are not good for tone. I will try to explain, based on a lengthy conversation I had about a decade ago with Tom Martin. We think that when the f-holes of a bass are really big, the sound jumps out of the bass quickly, creating the illusion of power. But when the f-holes are sized right, the sound has more time to roll around inside the corpus and it gets seasoned. Then the tone is more complex and woody, but the bass may not sound quite as loud in the immediate surrounding area. However, it will spread out into the hall and the audience will get more bass sound. Now this begs the question, "what is the right size?". My answer is, I know it when I see it. I think many of the Italian and English masters had it right, i.e., Panormo, the Testores, Ruggieri, etc. Contrarily, to my eye many of the Germans, Viennese, and some of the Americans make/made their f-holes overly large and open. And I have also had experience where very small f-holes seem to be holding back the power of a bass. I had the experience of enlarging them on a fine bass once, and I thought the instrument's power improved. Then again, other modifications were made, so I can't be sure.
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#11
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what i want in a bass
I always go for sound and volume before all else especially in chamber music where I am all alone and do not need to blend and my primary objective.
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#12
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Italians used proprotional geometry to place the f holes, Might that have a lot to do with them looking and sounding right?
Structuraly there is a lot going on in this area. The flexiblility of the plate in this area is highly effected by the placement of the f holes and their spacing, length, width of wings, slope and area. Arching, thickness and edge scoop also highly effect the structure of the top plate in this area. The bridge sits right in the middle and transmits the string movement directly to the top, right in the middle of the f holes. Theres a lot going on here! Viols had C holes with a similar area as f holes. But the C holes covered much less horizontal grain so the plate was stiffer in that area. F holes evolved to create the more violin like sound that is now favored in larger concert halls. So that is why I think f holes effect the sound a lot but not by air movement. The air pumping out of the box through the f holes creates a fullness to the sound. And I have noticed even cheap plywood basses have that whoomph, air sound. But the complex tone from a good bass comes from resonating of the bass body. I just don't think the f hole size effects tone much by itself, unless they are too small or large. I am going to do some tests later this week. edit: By allowing or not allowing air to pump, I should have said. Last edited by Ken McKay; 01-12-2009 at 02:06 PM. |
#13
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How does f-hole placement effect the sound?
If the f-hole is moved closer to the center of the bass, is the sound deeper with more bass response? Or does the bass have a more treble response if the f-holes are moved closer to the outer ribs? This is just a theory; still looking for evidence. |
#14
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This does not mean you should place f-holes all the way to the edges, because your tonal balance will suffer. The f-hole upper holes should be spaced the same distance apart as the size of bridge you wish to use. What, design the instrument from the set-up backwards? Exactly. |
#15
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keep 'em coming
Thanks to all for input. Keep 'em coming.
martin |
#16
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Exactly what I did when designing our bass!
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#17
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So ... can you elaborate on exactly what you believe matters?
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#18
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Can I?
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So, what exactly made the bass sound better? Hard to tell.. |
#19
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I agree with your last point that there are just too many variables in DB luthiery to be able to make any reliable rule of thumb. For the record, *I* don't know what the effect of changing F hole size does, as a generalization. Nor F hole placement, angle, edge shape, length, area etc. It would be nice to have a formula to work with, but I don't think there's going to be one. My own hunch is that it is not so much the size or shape of the F holes that matters for sound, so much as the size and shape of the space left between them. So it's the INSIDE edge of the FFs that is most important; the outside edge has a marginal effect. But I don't have any evidence to back that up. Arnold's observations are valuable but I don't think anyone would care to predict the outcome on a bass's sound based on those alone. |
#20
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well..
The air does come out of the holes as if it's the 'sound window'. The size of the window can be too small or to big to handle the air pressure or lack of it. What is better or worse, who knows? Softer woods might have different formulas than harder woods, etc. Placement of the Fs is another issue as far as the bass itself goes. Too exact basses with different wood might differ as well.
I am a firm believer that the wood matters. A LOT. Actually, everything matters. If there was a formula, there wouldn't be as many models around as there are now. I know a good bass when I hear it or play it. I speculate quite a bit with basses that are barely playable or totally unplayable and usually come out ok after restoration. It's the 'package' and not just one factor that makes or breaks a bass design wise. |
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