What do you want in a bass ?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

So ... can you elaborate on exactly what you believe matters?

Well, it is impossible to compare anything unless the exact same Bass is altered. I recently had one of my Basses slightly altered as Arnold mentioned and there was a slight noticeable difference. The Bass also got a Neck graft with a longer neck, string length 1" longer, the neck block converted from a dovetail to a mortise with a tighter fit from neck to block, new Fingerboard, the Back re-repaired, some other internal work tightened up and a partial center back Brace.

So, what exactly made the bass sound better? Hard to tell..

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Well, it is impossible to compare anything unless the exact same Bass is altered. I recently had one of my Basses slightly altered as Arnold mentioned and there was a slight noticeable difference. The Bass also got a Neck graft with a longer neck, string length 1" longer, the neck block converted from a dovetail to a mortise with a tighter fit from neck to block, new Fingerboard, the Back re-repaired, some other internal work tightened up and a partial center back Brace.

Oh. As you put on the record that you did think that F hole size mattered, I thought you might have some empirical evidence or observation of your own from the many fine basses you own, that you might be able to share. But what you're saying is that from your experience you can't actually say for sure that altering the F hole size matters much at all?

I agree with your last point that there are just too many variables in DB luthiery to be able to make any reliable rule of thumb.

For the record, *I* don't know what the effect of changing F hole size does, as a generalization. Nor F hole placement, angle, edge shape, length, area etc. It would be nice to have a formula to work with, but I don't think there's going to be one. My own hunch is that it is not so much the size or shape of the F holes that matters for sound, so much as the size and shape of the space left between them. So it's the INSIDE edge of the FFs that is most important; the outside edge has a marginal effect. But I don't have any evidence to back that up. Arnold's observations are valuable but I don't think anyone would care to predict the outcome on a bass's sound based on those alone.

[Ken Smith]

The air does come out of the holes as if it's the 'sound window'. The size of the window can be too small or to big to handle the air pressure or lack of it. What is better or worse, who knows? Softer woods might have different formulas than harder woods, etc. Placement of the Fs is another issue as far as the bass itself goes. Too exact basses with different wood might differ as well.

I am a firm believer that the wood matters. A LOT.

Actually, everything matters. If there was a formula, there wouldn't be as many models around as there are now.

I know a good bass when I hear it or play it. I speculate quite a bit with basses that are barely playable or totally unplayable and usually come out ok after restoration. It's the 'package' and not just one factor that makes or breaks a bass design wise.

[Martin Sheridan]

Stradivari and before him, the Amati, had definite ideas about F hole placement. Stradivari's original designs still exist showing how and where he marked the fs. In fact these marking are still visible inside, on the top inside, of the Servais cello. Personally, I'm unclear about how he arrived at the exact placing, but the top holes appear to be in the center of the Cs and top curve of the bottom hole is in line with the bottom of the purfling as it curves into the bottom C corner. In fact this is one thing that experts look for when identifying classic Italian instruments. This was almost always ahered to, but Guarneri del Gesu made a few exceptions where you will see the bottom hole somewhat higher although the top holes follow the Amati/Stradivari principle.

Now when it comes to basses,there are so few from the classical period extant that I don't know if applies. If anyone has a good picture of the
1690 J. B. Rogeri take a look at it and report back as it's believed that he studied with Nicolo Amati and so he probably would have incorporated this into his basses (bass?). I've seen that bass and right now I can't remember.

I had a very old Italian bass in my shop once that had the longest F holes I've ever seen, not particularly wide, but very long. You would have thought that the top wouldn't have stood the strain, but it was in fine condition and the sound was quite good.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

Stradivari and before him, the Amati, had definite ideas about F hole placement. [...] This was almost always ahered to, .

But do we know whether his ideas were based on an aesthetic design principle that happened to work OK, so he stuck with it ... or whether he tried dozens of different sizes and placements (keeping all other things equal, of course) until he found the BEST one? I tend to think the former is more likely. We don't have any evidence of strads with experimental FF hole placement, do we?

In relation to basses, there are SO MANY variations in corpus volume, plate shape, string length, top graduation, internal bracing, rib depth, wood choice etc that I can't see how any of the placement rules Strad used could apply just like that.

In fact if there was an optimum FF placing and size for a bass, you'd think that someone would have found it by now!

Actually that's what I love about basses. The lack of a formula.

[Martin Sheridan]

I don't know that anyone knows for sure if this was aesthetics or acoustics, but they do arrive at the the acoustic center of the instrument more or less.

I've always loved basses partly because of the variations in size and design. I'm glad we don't all have to make the same one over and over again, yet it is sometimes a source of frustration that the bass you just spent six months on is too big or too small for someone, but they always fit somebody! This is true also with violas which vary a lot in size and shape. Violins and cellos are almost completely standardized.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

I don't know that anyone knows for sure if this was aesthetics or acoustics, but they do arrive at the the acoustic center of the instrument more or less.

What's the "acoustic centre"?