Where are they??

[Michael Glynn]

There is a picture of a Seitz bass with rounded lower corners towards the bottom of this page. Again, probably a little late for what you are looking for. Of course, that page also show the famous "Bussetto" formerly belonging to Rainier Zepperitz.

As I've mentioned on that "other" bass site, I believe the rounded lower corners and f-hole designs on that instrument are derived from the viola d'amore family. Another thread here showed a bass by Woodbury and Burditt that also shows some of these more exaggerated viola d'amore type features (for example, compare it to this viola d'amore), but with standard f-holes. This bass makes me wonder if at least part of the inspiration for the rounded lower corners on many early American basses came from true viola d'amore style instruments, rather than simply Mittenwald basses with rounded lower corners. Here is a modern reproduction of a violone made in Nuremberg in 1640 with strong viola d'amore features as another comparison to the Woodbury and Burditt instrument.

Incidentally, while looking up some stuff on Woodbury and Burditt (and it seems their basses may have been actually made by William Conant) I found this interesting notice from the "Fourth Exhibition of the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association" in 1844, mentioning a musicial instrument competition that included instruments from Woodbury and Burditt, Prescott, Dearborn and others. This notice from their first exhibition in 1837 mentions basses and cellos by Prescott, the Dearborns, J.B. Allen, and Henry Prentiss. It also mentions that, regarding the basses and cellos:

"They have been constructed upon such models of instruments of foreign manufacture, as the makers chanced to meet with; and, where these models have been departed from, the changes have all been made without reference to any other use of the instrument, than as mere accompaniment to the voices in common psalmody."

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Michael Glynn

There is a picture of a Seitz bass with rounded lower corners towards the bottom of this page. Again, probably a little late for what you are looking for. Of course, that page also show the famous "Bussetto" formerly belonging to Rainier Zepperitz.

As I've mentioned on that "other" bass site, I believe the rounded lower corners and f-hole designs on that instrument are derived from the viola d'amore family. Another thread here showed a bass by Woodbury and Burditt that also shows some of these more exaggerated viola d'amore type features (for example, compare it to this viola d'amore), but with standard f-holes. This bass makes me wonder if at least part of the inspiration for the rounded lower corners on many early American basses came from true viola d'amore style instruments, rather than simply Mittenwald basses with rounded lower corners. Here is a modern reproduction of a violone made in Nuremberg in 1640 with strong viola d'amore features as another comparison to the Woodbury and Burditt instrument.

Incidentally, while looking up some stuff on Woodbury and Burditt (and it seems their basses may have been actually made by William Conant) I found this interesting notice from the "Fourth Exhibition of the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association" in 1844, mentioning a musicial instrument competition that included instruments from Woodbury and Burditt, Prescott, Dearborn and others. This notice from their first exhibition in 1837 mentions basses and cellos by Prescott, the Dearborns, J.B. Allen, and Henry Prentiss. It also mentions that, regarding the basses and cellos:

"They have been constructed upon such models of instruments of foreign manufacture, as the makers chanced to meet with; and, where these models have been departed from, the changes have all been made without reference to any other use of the instrument, than as mere accompaniment to the voices in common psalmody."

First off, I have copied the American text references and copied them to my History of the American Bass thread for others to see there.

Now on the two basses from Japan you post I have seen them several times. I even went as far to ask Michael Krahmer of Pollmann face to face at the ISB to ask why he/they use the term 'Busseto/Bussetto/Busetto (pick your spelling). The maker G.M. del B. came from the town of Busseto in Italy. I even started a thread about the use of this name Busseto as well in the Forum. Michael told me it was because of this bass pictured that his father Gunther believes to be real.

In the Raymon Elgar books of the 1960's he revers to this as 'lower rounded corner' and nothing more. Somewhere this bass showed up and the old violin/lute maker G.M. del Busseto is suddenly a bass maker!

Look carefully at the upper and lower bouts of that bass? Klotz school from Mittenwald ALL the way in my eyes. I think that bass is an old German bass from Mittenwald or that area and has nothing to do with Italy. The form is nothing like anything ever seen from Italy and this maker is not known for making anything within the larger instruments.

So, in my mind, both the Seitz and this so called Bussetto Bass are from the same school of making with maybe a century or so between them.

Just my opinion.

[Michael Glynn]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

First off, I have copied the American text references and copied them to my History of the American Bass thread for others to see there.

Now on the two basses from Japan you post I have seen them several times. I even went as far to ask Michael Krahmer of Pollmann face to face at the ISB to ask why he/they use the term 'Busseto/Bussetto/Busetto (pick your spelling). The maker G.M. del B. came from the town of Busseto in Italy. I even started a thread about the use of this name Busseto as well in the Forum. Michael told me it was because of this bass pictured that his father Gunther believes to be real.

In the Raymon Elgar books of the 1960's he revers to this as 'lower rounded corner' and nothing more. Somewhere this bass showed up and the old violin/lute maker G.M. del Busseto is suddenly a bass maker!

Look carefully at the upper and lower bouts of that bass? Klotz school from Mittenwald ALL the way in my eyes. I think that bass is an old German bass from Mittenwald or that area and has nothing to do with Italy. The form is nothing like anything ever seen from Italy and this maker is not known for making anything within the larger instruments.

So, in my mind, both the Seitz and this so called Bussetto Bass are from the same school of making with maybe a century or so between them.

Just my opinion.

Thanks for posting those references to the other thread. I just ran across that stuff and thought it was interesting to hear what people of their own time thought of those instruments.

I'm with you on the origins of the supposed "Bussetto" bass. I just noticed that the Viola d'amore Society of America says the viola d'amore first appeared around Munich, Salzburg, and Bohemia and only later appeared in Italy. Looking at a random selection of violas d'amore, it seems the vast majority of the old makers had German names, which would seem to support the theory of the German origin and production of that type of instrument. And of course, Mittenwald is quite close to Munich and Salzburg, so it isn't surprising to see some of the design elements I would associate with the viola d'amore in instruments from Mittenwald.

It looks like in your conversation with Michael Krahmer you have helped confirm what I have long suspected--that the entire reason we call rounded lower corners "busseto" corners comes from the very suspect attribution of that one old bass.

Do you have any idea why that bass would have been attributed to Busseto in the first place? Does it share any features with his known instruments?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Michael Glynn

Thanks for posting those references to the other thread. I just ran across that stuff and thought it was interesting to hear what people of their own time thought of those instruments.

I'm with you on the origins of the supposed "Bussetto" bass. I just noticed that the Viola d'amore Society of America says the viola d'amore first appeared around Munich, Salzburg, and Bohemia and only later appeared in Italy. Looking at a random selection of violas d'amore, it seems the vast majority of the old makers had German names, which would seem to support the theory of the German origin and production of that type of instrument. And of course, Mittenwald is quite close to Munich and Salzburg, so it isn't surprising to see some of the design elements I would associate with the viola d'amore in instruments from Mittenwald.

It looks like in your conversation with Michael Krahmer you have helped confirm what I have long suspected--that the entire reason we call rounded lower corners "busseto" corners comes from the very suspect attribution of that one old bass.

Do you have any idea why that bass would have been attributed to Busseto in the first place? Does it share any features with his known instruments?

I have no clue or answers to this or why or when. Just that when I look at that bass, the bouts and style without the lower corners or sound holes, I see the word GERMAN loud and clear. I have seen a few instruments in books by the real maker Busetto. These I recall were Violins. I will have to look again to see if there were any other small instruments. Looking though at Busetto's work, style, varnish, etc. I have no idea how his name was ever associated with this bass other than a bass that needed a name to fit a price point.

How many German and non-Italian Basses have we seen mis-named as Italians. Also, not ONLY Italian but the MOST famous names possible. Sounds like dealer tampering if you ask me.

I am not saying that this so called Busetto is not a great bass. Maybe it is the best sounding bass ever heard. It just doesn't make it Italian. Remember, Stainer who is from northwest Austria just below Germany reportedly trained with the Amati family. Mathias Klotz reportedly trained with Stainer and also a Fussen maker that was working in Italy. Then Klotz returned to Mittenwald and founded the school of Violin making there. That is some high class associations if you ask me. With those credentials I would expect his work and that of his followers to be of a high order if so desired. There are many appreciated Italian makers who had less of an association at their start so being German is not a crime, just a fact.

These big German basses from Mittenwald can stand up to just about any Italian Bass in a professional Orchestra from what I have heard and seen. Remember, those powerful sounding Orchestras of the 19th century were not Italian, English or French. They were from Germany and Central Europe. I once heard that if in the 18th or 19th century you wanted to play good music, you were told to go to Vienna! This is how many of the Italian Violins found their way to Vienna and how some of the makers learned about them. I have also read that the English learned a lot about Orchestra basses from visiting Orchestra and seeing the big German 4-stringers when the English were still playing on 3-strings.

.. I guess because there was no Internet back then or 'Ken's Corner', you had to wait for a visit from outside your area to learn of these things if not travel yourself to see it.

[Jeff Campbell]

I agree Ken. I sit between a fabulous Gagliano and Ventepane bass in the Rochester Philharmonic played by two wonderful and seasoned bassists and my old Mittenwald bass keeps pace with these two Italian instruments. Between the three of us in the back row of the section, we put out a lot of sound. And it's not a matter of volume but quality and depth of sound.
Like the Mittenwald basses discussed here, both these Italian basses are perfled in the front but NOT in the back. They are Gamba shape with flat backs. The Ventapane has a 44 inch string length and the player has the same bridge that came with the bass in the late 1960s when there were still gut strings on the bass. Both have been cut down.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jeff Campbell

I agree Ken. I sit between a fabulous Gagliano and Ventepane bass in the Rochester Philharmonic played by two wonderful and seasoned bassists and my old Mittenwald bass keeps pace with these two Italian instruments. Between the three of us in the back row of the section, we put out a lot of sound. And it's not a matter of volume but quality and depth of sound.
Like the Mittenwald basses discussed here, both these Italian basses are perfled in the front but NOT in the back. They are Gamba shape with flat backs. The Ventapane has a 44 inch string length and the player has the same bridge that came with the bass in the late 1960s when there were still gut strings on the bass. Both have been cut down.

Nice story there Jeff. I wish more Orchestra Pros like yourself would come up and Post.

I think that it was not all that uncommon for makers to leave off the Purfling on the Back or in some cases like my Martini, front and back are without. The deep edges make one think there is something there but just a bevel line at the bead. Basses like these big Gambas whether Italian, Mittenwald or English have a lot in common. My Big Gamba is believed to be all 3 origins depending on who you ask and for good reason. It resembles a bit of each style. Who or where it was made will remain a mystery but for me, if the sound is there, then you can just sit back, relaxe and enjoy the ride..