" Name That Bass " aka "This OLD Bass"

[Ken Smith]

I visited Biasie in NYC yesterday to inspect the progress and go over the final measurements of the Neck and String Length alterations. The Neck Graft for the Scroll is well under way and he even put some matching Varnish on the Maple Cheeks I had added. It looks like it belongs now so I was happy about that.

I looks as if we will not be doing any cutting to the Top or Back around the Block other than converting the Dovetail joint to a Mortise and deepening it. Some of the Top was cut under the Fingerboard area to accommodate the deeper Neck-set which before hand just sat on top of the Block and not in it.

The FFs are extremely wide and the old Bassbar we left in was set in a bit from the upper Eye rather than up against it. This Bass can actually take a 3/4 sized 150mm Bridge and sit mostly over the entire 'bar. If we use a 165mm Bridge like the one used before on the Bass is will sit slightly over the center of the 'bar. I would prefer the wider Bridge being that the Bass is so wide. If the 'bar was out further towards the edge of the upper F-eye, it would need something closer to a 180mm Bridge blank.

I expect to have this Bass in my hands to play and break-in over the summer. Somewhere along the way I will decide if I want a C-Extension on it. If it's a Bass I am going to use myself in the Orchestra then I will have the Ext. put on. The Graft is set so that the outer Scroll edge is even with the plane of the Neck under the Fingerboard joint which seems just right for the Extension to be fit around the Scroll.

After 4 years we now believe this Bass to be English and no longer a big Mystery with the exception of the actual maker and date. Because of this I have changed the name from 'Mystery Bass' to 'Olde English'. I have also altered the Webpage quite a bit on this as well as deleting all the question and answer stuff with the various 'blind' opinions given from around the world. This Thread as well as the original TB Thread says it all so the original information and search is not lost. Here is the link to the updated 'Olde English' page.

[Matthew Tucker]

Can you share any pictures of the back bracing/blocks/scars on that bass? I'd be very interested to see that.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Can you share any pictures of the back bracing/blocks/scars on that bass? I'd be very interested to see that.

Matt, the Bass is all glued up now and just waiting for the Neck. I have never taken any pictures of the inside of the Top or Back. I did however take some pics of the Ribs while apart and posted them on my Website. The Neck Block was Shimmed internally so there would be room to cut a deeper mortise and save the existing Block. The Tailblock is the same as well, not replaced, touched or altered.

In this pic you can see the Tailblock which is relatively small as well as some of the Cornerblocks;


All of the Corner Blocks remain as well as the 'low' Bassbar and X-Brace that was in the Bass when I got it. Biase did however add some block wood in the X-area to beef up the center of the Back. He said the Tonetap was better afterwards than before.

The area in the Back by the Tailblock had virtually no wood left at all. He had to inlay a supportive piece inside, a piece outside flush with the Back and then cover it with a decorative bottom wood plate which I supplied from my maple stock (not shown). Most all of the internal repairs were done conventionally.

On the upper portion of the Back there was a very fine split starting at the upper Bout edge under that added Neck Button plate on the left (G side) and running thru that dark
horizontal scar and down a bit from there. The crack would not go together flush so on this he used a Violin repair technique as he explained. He sliced a sliver of wood from an area inside the Back near the crack and inlaid it outside where needed so that the wood and rays/grain would match up and not be visible after touch-up when turning the wood as the Flame moves in the light. He then inlaid another piece inside the back to fill the area used for the graft and then put a Patch over that as well. He also antiqued the new/old wood inlay thru that dark scar so it wouldn't be visible to the naked eye. It looked great when he showed it to me and I was quite impressed as well that he went the extra mile to do it the hard way which in the long run, was the best way.

All the pictures shown here were from before the Bass ever left my shop for this restoration over 4 years ago. I will post new pics when it's all done, I promise!

While I was there yesterday I got to play on a beautiful Bass by Paulo Antonio Testore. The Scroll however was not Testore but was told (and I agree) that it's from a much finer maker. He pointed out the details and said it's like Guarneri or Ruggeri, Cremona School. The Scroll was at least as old as the Bass (early 18th century). Then, to take some measurements and do some comparisons we used one of two big Giuseppe Guadagnini Basses he has and made comparisons for string length measurements and various stops. Then he pulled out a Violin by the same exact maker to show (and teach me) the similarities. The Arching was the same as far as curves go as were the FFs and Corners. Biase is also an international Violin dealer on a large scale. He always has several classics in his Violin, Viola and Cello stock as well as a few really great Basses. Although my trip was for my Bass in repair, it quickly turned into a lesson on Vintage Classic Italian makers and their traits. I have known Biase for my entire adult life and he is about 10 years my senior as well. I am truly grateful that he accepted this job. I have learned so much from this experience in the last four years.

[Ken Smith]

Here is a Bass with a very similar outline to mine;


What do you make of it?

[Ken Smith]

First off, what is the biggest Neck-Stand (from the Top to the underside of the Fingerboard) you guys have ever had or seen?

My Basses that were recently restored with the Necks re-set average from about 34-37+mm (1 3/8"-1 7/8+). I have heard of some using 40mm as a standard measurement as well.

My Big Bass was supposed to originally have the Shoulders Cut to get it down from a 44" String length to a 42" and then we opted for just a Block-cut instead. Towards the end of the restoration Biase lowered the Neck slightly into the modified Block and pulled the new Grafted Neck out at the heel to over 50mm. he just measured it over the phone and the current dry-fit is about 55mm or 2 3/16" out from the Top.

The Bridge was also placed on the upper most position that shows wear from before which sits just above the FF notches as seen here from the old scars;


Within the next week or so I will go into NY to meet with Biase and finalize the neck-Stand and String length. We are well within the 42" or less number now but I will do some final measurements when I get there. The Pitch he has the Neck at now is planned for about 10 degrees. I don't know if that is steep or shallow but I will have a look at it in a few days. I have no idea what pitches my other Basses are and I doubt any two are the exactly same as they all feel different when comparing the most recent 3 restored Basses, the Gilkes, Hart and Martini.

Because of several factors about this Bass like the long body length, the long original string length, the extra wide upper bouts and the Rib area at the Block that tapers down to 5 3/4" (from 8 1/2"), Biase feels that this Bass is now very playable without any cutting whatsoever. The Body and Shoulders of this old beauty has been respectfully preserved now 100% to its original build or at least from what we can tell.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

You mention a "pitch" angle of 10 degrees. Well, that's nice to know, but irrelevant as every bass will be different there. Some basses have setback in the neck block mortise, some are completely flat. Occasionally you encounter a bass where the block angles down in the front. So a ten degree angle on one bass may be perfect and on another be unplayable. What I'm saying is that pitch angle is not a measurement that can be used for comparitive purposes. Also, the amount of overstand you describe above is really excessive; the result could be shoulder strain (in the player) or even a split neck, as a huge amount of stressed end-grain wood will be hanging out of the body unsupported.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

You mention a "pitch" angle of 10 degrees. Well, that's nice to know, but irrelevant as every bass will be different there. Some basses have setback in the neck block mortise, some are completely flat. Occasionally you encounter a bass where the block angles down in the front. So a ten degree angle on one bass may be perfect and on another be unplayable. What I'm saying is that pitch angle is not a measurement that can be used for comparative purposes. Also, the amount of overstand you describe above is really excessive; the result could be shoulder strain (in the player) or even a split neck, as a huge amount of stressed end-grain wood will be hanging out of the body unsupported.

So, what should be the maximum 'overstand' for the integrity of the neck-heel as far as endgrain strength goes be? This Neck is a new graft made of aged European Maple (a Cello Back) which I purchased about 4 years ago from a supplier for the restoration project. The wood is fairy hard and high quality with tight narrow flame.

Also, the Bridge was figured out to be about 7" tall due to the wide 15 1/2" center bouts. I just looked Arnold and noticed that the Prescott, a similar large Bass that you restored also had the same 15 1/2" center bouts and Bowed just fine. Do you happen to recall what the Bridge height was on that Bass? I think the center Top arch is not far off between the two Basses from what I can see in the pictures.