Origin or the outer Rib Linings/Moldings..

[Martin Sheridan]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

No matter who started it, it's a bad idea.

Arnold, I'm in total agreement. They are not only unnecessary, they're ugly to boot.

I'd be suspicious of the origin of any 'Italian' bass with outside linings.

(edit). But then I'm automatically suspicious of any bass called Italian.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

Arnold, I'm in total agreement. They are not only unnecessary, they're ugly to boot.

I'd be suspicious of the origin of any 'Italian' bass with outside linings.

(edit). But then I'm automatically suspicious of any bass called Italian.

On the Italian thing, your first suspicion can rest. Italians DID make Basses with outer Moldings. I have seen both 19th and 20th century Basses with them, CONFIRMED Italian Pedigrees. As a matter of fact most of the early Martini Basses have them. I have personally seen 3 older ones and one of his last. Two had them from the oldies and one each old and later did not.

Again, if this is a German trait, then let me say this. There are many German Basses that are build with German features like Dovetail Neck joints for instance beside the Molding issue. Two of my Basses have their original Neck Blocks, the Martini and the Candi. In both cases it was discovered that when the Back or Top was taken off (Top of the Martini and Back of the Candi) for repairs it was realized that they had 'hidden' Dovetail joints. The Top and Back plates covering the Joint, and very neatly as well.

On your second point, you are smart to be suspicious with the Italian naming. It is done 100 fold on the Violins so it's just trickled down to the Basses. I have seen what could be Shop Basses made in either Germany or France (I have seen 2 of each) where the Bass either looks 100% like an old German Shop Bass or a French Mirecourt Bass (Jacquet/Claudot style) but have Italian Labels.

I have played one of each and they didn't sound typical Italian to me so I think my guess was correct. On both cases, the Bass did look like it had extra care given on the wood and/or varnish so it's not out of the question that the shop bought the Bass from wherever and completed and Labeled it as well.

On the other hand, we see so many wannabes coming out of Romania and Hungry these days with Italian styling Labeled or not.

I once asked a very fine Bass player (who is no longer with us) about the way to tell if a Bass was Italian or not, this being asked when I first got my Old Italian Bass back in 1973 before actually making the deal to buy it. His answer was "when you play it, you can see the Pasta coming out of the F-Holes".. There was so much Pasta coming from that Bass, I needed not one or two but several 'dogie bags'..

Well, if that's the case, then who needs to get appraisals anymore?.. lol..

I have had several fine sounding non-Italian Basses that could pass for the 'Pasta School' if one was blind folded while listening or being fed. Still, there are the 'Value' differences we must be aware of as far as good playing/sounding Basses vs. investment grade Basses which usually have the sound as well.

[Martin Sheridan]

There are "Italian" violin family instruments from the 19th and 20th centuries that originated in Germany, and today there are a fair number of "Italian" violins that originally came from China.

Not all Italian instruments have the "Italian" sound.

Much of Italian workmanship is not very good.

The work that came out of Italy between 1550 and 1750 bares almost no resemblance to 19th and 20th century work.

19th and 20th century American made violin family instruments have been and probably still are being sold to Europe where they get relabled as Italian.

Nearly any skilled workman can imitate the work of another worker from another country.

If it looks like pasta and tastes like pasta, it's probably pasta (but maybe not).

Just some observations.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

There are "Italian" violin family instruments from the 19th and 20th centuries that originated in Germany, and today there are a fair number of "Italian" violins that originally came from China.

Not all Italian instruments have the "Italian" sound.

Much of Italian workmanship is not very good.

The work that came out of Italy between 1550 and 1750 bares almost no resemblance to 19th and 20th century work.

19th and 20th century American made violin family instruments have been and probably still are being sold to Europe where they get relabled as Italian.

Nearly any skilled workman can imitate the work of another worker from another country.

If it looks like pasta and tastes like pasta, it's probably pasta (but maybe not).

Just some observations.

OK, BUT there ARE Italian Basses with outer moldings and dovetail joints. This is without a doubt. Italian labels fall into many many instruments that are not Italian. Some of them are actually Italian.

Martin, is there really a place called Italy? Just checking..

I have owned many Italian Basses. Only about half of them were properly labeled or labeled at all. These were all 20th century Basses. In 100-200 years from now someone will put my Martini label in a Juzek/Wilfer and sell it as Italian. Mark my words.. I have had almost as many come thru here labeled or claiming to be Italian that were not so I have personally experienced it both ways.

Martin, you are welcome to come over and inspect my Basses.

[Matthew Tucker]

Arnold, have you ever come across with a bass with ONLY outside linings? I would have thought that his scenario would maintain the thinner glue surface, increase the vibrating plate thickness and protect the overhang slightly. So why is this not common?

I have a Meinel bass where the outside lining is basically a thin 1/4 round molding right up to the edge of the overhang. For a student bass, this really protects the edge well. Looks pretty crap though. I think I'll remove it when I restore the bass.