9-1-1, 9-1-1, 9-1-1, Luthier on the loose..

[Thomas Erickson]

Interesting that you compare the bass market to that of autos.

Most informed people, and certainly those familiar with the industry, know that when you visit a car dealer what you see is not what you get; similarly, that virtually every body shop out there (certainly those hooked to insurance) do bad work and will take advantage of you at every turn. These aren't things worth griping about or trying to change, rather, they're just part of life and if you want to buy a car or get one fixed, you educate yourself and wade in - if you play the game well, you come out fine - If you get screwed, the only one to blame is yourself.

And I'm not saying that salesmen who lie, bodyshops that do hack work and cheat, any of that is ok, because obviously it isn't!

So my question is - where does the idea of "buyer beware" come into play in the world of basses? It's hard enough for a person to learn the basics of buying and/or selling a car, or to understand how insurance and body repair works, let alone the ability to recognize on sight a car that's been wrecked and fixed - and there are infinite resources out there! So when it comes to basses, at what point and to what degree should a person buying a bass or having work done be expected to have his own back and know what he's dealing in? After all, business is business and this is America - making money is always at someone else's expense...

[Ken Smith]

Buying a bass for 8k that was only worth 4k when you bought it is not business, it's robbery.

A dealer/luthier fixing a bass poorly or springing in a bar that well self implode is not bad work. It is vandalism.

Buying a modern Ford Escort and being told it's vintage Ford Mustang is not buyer education/buyer beware. The dealer is supposed to have the products labeled correctly. After all, he's the dealer representing the product and its not a Flea market as-is amateur to amateur type of sale. Deception is Fraud.

The last I heard, Robbery, Vandalism and Fraud were all crimes you could go to jail for and serve time.

Selling faked Hungarian Basses (or Violins or Cellos) and knowing they are Fakes is Fraud. Yet dealers continue to attempt to deceive until someone falls for it. How can this be legal and why are these people practicing this criminal deception NOT in Jail yet?

Look, you walk down a dark alley in a bad neighborhood late at night and two teens pull a knife on you and rob you. That is business as usual. But, you walk into a beautiful shop with violins through basses or maybe just basses and you buy a Hungarian fake and pay over 100k to get what you think is an old Italian classic. That is NOT business as usual. That is criminal deception. At lease in the alley you knew you were in trouble. In a Bass/Violin shop with permits displayed to do business and all the success and reputation you have been taught to believe you don't expect to be clubbed over the head by the shop owner. You are relaxed and trusting as you are talked to, showed around and given time to choose your instrument only to find out you were safer in the ally. There at least the kids could only take what you have. Not make you mortgage your house for some fake that will take years to pay for and only be worth a fraction of what you paid at any given time.

If you get a particular pedigree and it's back dated by estimate, its only minor but in the case of a Strad, paying 6 instead of 2 million, it's still a huge loss. Buying a Strad that is really a Fendt forgery is robbery as well.

Dealers and makers (in the minority, I hope!) have been robbing and deceiving for centuries. Bass players need to take action and get other dealers/luthiers in as witnesses to fight these crimes so it can at least slow down if not stop. I can see how mistakes can be made but people continue to go to these shops and even though some or maybe most of their dealings is honest, like in Russian roulette, there is that one bullet waiting for you.

[Adrian Levi]

I' m guessing that if an instrument is sold with a guarantee from the seller that said instrument is exactly what its meant to be , then there must be some legal recourse if the instrument turns out to be a fake . I wonder how often sellers are actually under the impression that they 'may' be selling fakes ? If I had the funds to go and buy an antique Italian Masterpiece then I'd be sure to have it carbon dated just in case it may be 'off' by 100 years or so

I also suppose that if a dealer knowingly sold you a fake instrument you may be able to lay a charge of fraud , whether or not you could prove that the seller actually was aware that he was selling a fake is another thing......

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrian Levi

I' m guessing that if an instrument is sold with a guarantee from the seller that said instrument is exactly what its meant to be , then there must be some legal recourse if the instrument turns out to be a fake . I wonder how often sellers are actually under the impression that they 'may' be selling fakes ? If I had the funds to go and buy an antique Italian Masterpiece then I'd be sure to have it carbon dated just in case it may be 'off' by 100 years or so

I also suppose that if a dealer knowingly sold you a fake instrument you may be able to lay a charge of fraud , whether or not you could prove that the seller actually was aware that he was selling a fake is another thing......

Ok, show me a bass that had its pedigree proved by carbon dating, please.

Even if you find DNA from the actual maker, maybe he only touched it. Dating only proves the age of the wood and within a given range. It does not prove who made it or when.

Also, in this country, ignorance is no excuse for the Law. Intention may increase the degree of the charges but theft is theft.

[Adrian Levi]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Ok, show me a bass that had its pedigree proved by carbon dating, please.

Even if you find DNA from the actual maker, maybe he only touched it. Dating only proves the age of the wood and within a given range. It does not prove who made it or when.

Also, in this country, ignorance is no excuse for the Law. Intention may increase the degree of the charges but theft is theft.

I was thinking that even with expert opinion and the such , maybe it would be possible to carbon date a finish perhaps , just to add to the authenticity / I'm no expert on carbon dating but was under the impression that it was pretty damn accurate !
How often have you seen players with basses that are not what they think they are because they were duped, and have you seen fakes coming out of any of the better known retailers in the US ?
Also have you ever seen fakes that are almost visually like the real thing ?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrian Levi

How often have you seen players with basses that are not what they think they are because they were duped

I have seen a few of them. Usually they get them cheaper so they think they got a deal but still, they paid too much. One other sale happened awhile back and with 2 other appraisals took them to court and won. It cost him $10k to get his money back. The bass was well over 100k. The fake job was quite good to the naked eye.

and have you seen fakes coming out of any of the better known retailers in the US?

I have seen a few that in my opinion were not what they claimed to be, so yes as far as fakes. I have seen many more also from better known shops that were sold as something else like French or Italian that were actually German. They buyer thinks he's getting a deal but is actually paying top dollar retail and more.

Also have you ever seen fakes that are almost visually like the real thing?

I have seen a few that were harder to identify but unless they were used upside down or inside out or kept in the case for all its life the actual playing wear for basses that age was just not present. Taking them apart and scraping off the false oxidation stain inside will reveal the fresh wood.

Currently, Arnold has apart my old Italian Guitar shaped bass. No matter how much scraping he has done the dark oxidized color is IN the wood as deep as you go. This is true age.

[Adrian Levi]

Currently, Arnold has apart my old Italian Guitar shaped bass. No matter how much scraping he has done the dark oxidized color is IN the wood as deep as you go. This is true age.

I still think that Arnold should have your bass carbon dated asap