9-1-1, 9-1-1, 9-1-1, Luthier on the loose..

[Dave Martin]

Ken, I gather from reading your posts on the subject of provenance that there is a certain amount of guesswork involved even among experts; I seem to remember that you've bought basses thinking they were from one maker and later changed your mind - after further research, study and reflection. And do you know (or strongly suspect) of any dealers who have changed the provenance in a willful attempt to defraud rather than simply having an option that maybe wrong?

And while I'm thinking about it, have you considered going public and naming those dealers who you can prove have replaced labels or altered the provenance of instruments specifically to increase the price in the manner you've described?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

Ken, I gather from reading your posts on the subject of provenance that there is a certain amount of guesswork involved even among experts; I seem to remember that you've bought basses thinking they were from one maker and later changed your mind - after further research, study and reflection. And do you know (or strongly suspect) of any dealers who have changed the provenance in a willful attempt to defraud rather than simply having an option that maybe wrong?

And while I'm thinking about it, have you considered going public and naming those dealers who you can prove have replaced labels or altered the provenance of instruments specifically to increase the price in the manner you've described?

Touchy questions. Yes to about everything but I wont name names here in public. If I have a problem, I will handle it as I have in the past.

One Bass I brought in from Europe had an Italian label and was sold as such to me. I came back to the seller with information that disproved the origin. The dealer offered a full refund less shipping or adjust the price to something fair for what the bass actually was. I keep the bass, got a partial refund, had some work done on it and sold it for a fair price to a very happy customer. The selling price after all the repairs was still only about 2/3rds of what my original cost was un-repaired so you can imagine how good it was to find out what I didn't have and handle the problem.

Many basses are sold with names and labels that don't belong there and the dealer, unless a beginner in the field knows very well what he's doing. That is one of the ways to make money. Up the pedigree and the price along with it.

As far as changing ones mind, that doesn't happen that often but it's the most honest thing a dealer or seller can do. My Hart was a Fendt when I bought it. My Guitar bass was a Storioni when I bought it. My Dodd was a Betts when I bought it. None of those name changes however affected the price. They are still at least as valuable if not more. The Bass I bought in 1973 with a Rivolta lable now has a Rogeri label in it from last I heard. Now, I am all for changing attributions when new information is discovered but how in the world did that Rivolta label grow into a Rogeri label? .. Dealer tampering!

With some old basses that are nothing normal from what we usually see, they are often called Italian. Why? Maybe it's Dutch, German, Spanish, Hungarian or whatever. Not every odd looking old bass is Italian. Maybe most are not but the word 'Italian' jacks up the price. I have seen many basses that to me were German and were sold as Italian. Many old English basses have in the past sold as Italian and quite a few of the nicer German basses are often sold as French, Italian or English as well. It's a mess.

Maybe if all basses were branded inside the Back originally like the serial number on a Gun or a Vin number on a Car, less 'hanky panky' would be going on. If the Brand is missing, then suspect a Fraud in one way or another. Unfortunately this is just wishful thinking..

[Dave Martin]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Touchy questions. Yes to about everything but I wont name names here in public. If I have a problem, I will handle it as I have in the past.

As far as changing ones mind, that doesn't happen that often but it's the most honest thing a dealer or seller can do. My Hart was a Fendt when I bought it. My Guitar bass was a Storioni when I bought it. My Dodd was a Betts when I bought it. None of those name changes however affected the price. They are still at least as valuable if not more. The Bass I bought in 1973 with a Rivolta lable now has a Rogeri label in it from last I heard. Now, I am all for changing attributions when new information is discovered but how in the world did that Rivolta label grow into a Rogeri label? .. Dealer tampering!

Those name changes were what I remembered reading about; thank you for the clarification. Like you, I don't understand how a bass could grow a new label, though as a point of reference, my early 60's Juzek (the date is a best guess from the old Bass Viol Shop in Cincinnatti) has a label that appears to be a Xerox (or whatever they had before 'real' copiers). Perhaps the distributor in New York was out of paper labels the day mine came through...

[kurt ratering]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

Those name changes were what I remembered reading about; thank you for the clarification. Like you, I don't understand how a bass could grow a new label, though as a point of reference, my early 60's Juzek (the date is a best guess from the old Bass Viol Shop in Cincinnatti) has a label that appears to be a Xerox (or whatever they had before 'real' copiers). Perhaps the distributor in New York was out of paper labels the day mine came through...

perhaps im wrong but... i was under the impression that all juzek labels look like that...

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

Those name changes were what I remembered reading about; thank you for the clarification. Like you, I don't understand how a bass could grow a new label, though as a point of reference, my early 60's Juzek (the date is a best guess from the old Bass Viol Shop in Cincinnati) has a label that appears to be a Xerox (or whatever they had before 'real' copiers). Perhaps the distributor in New York was out of paper labels the day mine came through...

The Labels were probably on a sheet that they cut out one by one. I don't recall a single Juzek with a date inside them. I have seen a few older pre-War Anton Wilfer instruments that were imported by Juzek that were dated by Wilfer but never a date from Juzek. Juzek IS the importer, not the maker. One Wenzle Wilfer bass I bought from them was dateless as well. I wrote in a date in blue ink to make the year I first saw that bass in the shop. It could have been older BUT, 100 years from now someone will thank me for at least some reference of time. In my case, I made sure the inked date looked different from the printed label so they know it was done afterwards and not by the maker.

I would have to call Juzek and see if they remember writing dates on the labels. Often, they would just warehouse the instruments and put in a label when they set it up before shipping. I have also seen generic type German basses with Juzek labels that look nothing like a Juzek as well as basses attributed to Juzek or the Juzek shop. GUYS, there never was a Juzek Shop making Basses and Juzek himself (John/Jan) never made a bass in his life according to his Nephew Bobby. They were all contracted.

So, on that note, if I haven't seen your bass, now would be a good time to look at the instrument (back too mainly) as well as the label and see if it's all Kosher, or Juzek..

[Dave Martin]

I understand that there never was a Juzek shop; when I bought it in the mid/late 1980's, the guys at the Bass Viol Shop offered a manufacturing date of probably the 1960's as an admittedly rough guess. I doesn't matter to me, though; the bass functions as intended.

The label doesn't look printed; it looks like it a copy (made in the days before plain paper copiers). The folks at Williams Violins pointed out the label and said it didn't look typical to them the first time I took it to their shop. I'll look at it tomorrow and see if I can get a picture.

[Eric Rene Roy]

Originally Posted by Dave Martin

The label doesn't look printed; it looks like it a copy (made in the days before plain paper copiers).

My old stand mate from high school brought his bass to me recently to make a few repairs on. Although the bass looked nothing like any "Juzek" I have ever seen...it had a photocopied "Juzek" label in it. I told my friend it was not a typical "Juzek", but a decent German Factory flat-back (and honestly better than most of the Juzek's you see), and the label was most likely a fake dropped in to make the bass more appealing.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

The Labels were probably on a sheet that they cut out one by one. I don't recall a single Juzek with a date inside them.

Not to contradict you Maestro, but the "Master Art Copy" Juzeks I've seen have a year written on the label. They look to have been penned by hand.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

Not to contradict you Maestro, but the "Master Art Copy" Juzeks I've seen have a year written on the label. They look to have been penned by hand.

I don't disagree. I just never seen one. My Bass was a Master Art model but had the WBW label from Wilfer. Juzek Didn't put their label in that bass. I myself 'penned' in the date. There were other basses up there sitting for years unsold and unseen by the public. It would have been a 'hunt' to find out when they were made or when they came in.

I think the Master Art Basses for the most part could have been made before the War and left in stock as the one I got there was old. Bobby Juzek said they can't get these anymore so I assume that it was from after the war by its looks. I first saw that bass in 1966 or so. That's the date I put in it but bought it in late '71.

Those basses called 'Master Art' were made by Wilfer, Wenzel or the elder Anton. I have owned one of each. I have an old catalog page with the same basses advertised and it's not by Juzek. This shows that Wilfer sold them to more than one company here in the states. Juzek sold most of their basses to the Public School system. I assume now that they couldn't buy all the higher end basses that Wilfer could produce so they found someone else to buy their production as well. The maple figuring on the Master Art basses is about the best that's ever grown on the planet.

[Eric Hochberg]

Here's the MasterArt Label from my bass. Has the hand written date that Arnold describes. My bass does not look like the Juzeks I've seen...