Starting a DB Project

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Ruben it looks like you're on the right track to me.

As far as sequence goes I would repair the bottom block areas and do the sound post patch first, then the cleats last.

My tip: I often use small bags of lead shot as weights to clamp the cleats ... it does as good a job as a clamp and much easier.

Thank u, good tip... It really makes sence...i still need a couple extra tools to make the sp patch...!

[Matthew Tucker]

I think the cleats are insurance, not the main game. After fitting the post patch it's nice to be able to manoeuver a plane around that area without knocking into cleats. Same with the block repair. If all the cleats are fitted as laid out, it's going to be less fun trimming the block patch. I think.

Originally Posted by wayne holmes

I would also do all the cleating and reshape the top, if needed, before the new bass bar or sp patch is installed.

Wayne, speaking of sequencing, you dint mean by the above that you would cleat the top THEN reshape it, if needed?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by wayne holmes

I place it in a wood mode(if I am going to replace the bass bar I will remove most of it before I put the top in the mold.

BTW, Traeger comes up pretty often- one thing that I totally disagree with him about is springing in a bassbar. IMO, it is totally unnecessary and good for nothing.

If you are going to re-shape the Top from depressions or sinkage you HAVE to take out the Bassbar. Actually, you need to 'gut' the inside of the Top if it's a full pressing. If a partial pressing, remove everything in that area if not more.

The usual areas that sink are the lower Bassbar area, upper Bassbar area, center Bridge area and Soundpost area in that order from what I have seen. If just under the Bar at the bottom, it is possible that it was caused by a sprung-in Bar. The Bar itself when sprung in will not push out the Top in the center like some think because it is anchored against thinner graduated areas of the Top that are weaker. The sprung Bar will pull the top inwards at the ends and possibly split to top as well.

I have had quite a few basses restored where the Top was partially or completely re-shaped so I have seen the process quite a few times. Last week I was up at Arnold's and saw the plaster mold outside behind the shop. I went to lift it and uhgggg, no way. It's a two man job. Arnold mentioned that each time he had to move the mold around with or without the Top in it he had his assistant help him move it.

[Ruben E garcia]

Thank you for the feedback.... I got a question and this applies to SP patch and all...
I read that to get a good bounding you need to let the cleat sit on the top from one minute till the hide glue jell, and the using a hair dryer heat the glue again and then apply pressure to it...

Or I should just apply pressure to the cleat as fast as I can and clamp with good pressure, not too much but firm..

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Originally Posted by Ruben E garcia

Thank you for the feedback.... I got a question and this applies to SP patch and all...
I read that to get a good bounding you need to let the cleat sit on the top from one minute till the hide glue gel, and the using a hair dryer heat the glue again and then apply pressure to it...

Or I should just apply pressure to the cleat as fast as I can and clamp with good pressure, not too much but firm..

Yes, just glue it and clamp it. Don't worry about applying too much clamp pressure. Fine Woodworking had a great article a few years ago where they tested joints put together with varying amounts of clamp pressure, and different glues. What they discovered to everyone's surprise, is that there is no such thing as a "starved" glue joint. The high-pressure joints, though they squeezed out more of the glue, were actually stronger.

When you get ready to glue in your soundpost patch, make sure you size the wood of the bass top and the patch with thin hide glue, because there will be considerable end grain revealed. Without sizing, the glue will soak into the endgrain too much and the joint will eventually come apart. Also, if you are not using a counter form on the opposite side, you will need a lot of clamps, and you'll need to apply them quickly. Gluing down temporary cleats around the soundpost patch will keep it from sliding around when it's full of slippery glue.

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

Yes, just glue it and clamp it. Don't worry about applying too much clamp pressure. Fine Woodworking had a great article a few years ago where they tested joints put together with varying amounts of clamp pressure, and different glues. What they discovered to everyone's surprise, is that there is no such thing as a "starved" glue joint. The high-pressure joints, though they squeezed out more of the glue, were actually stronger.

Yes I always though that too much pressure will squeeze the glue out….

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

When you get ready to glue in your soundpost patch, make sure you size the wood of the bass top and the patch with thin hide glue, because there will be considerable end grain revealed. Without sizing, the glue will soak into the endgrain too much and the joint will eventually come apart. Also, if you are not using a counter form on the opposite side, you will need a lot of clamps, and you'll need to apply them quickly. Gluing down temporary cleats around the soundpost patch will keep it from sliding around when it's full of slippery glue

1. So I should apply thin coat of glue in both sides top and SP patch…
2. The counter form you mean by the front of the Bass top right?
3. Temp Cleats around the SP patch like the Mathew’s Restoration…

[Pino Cazzaniga]

I think the faster the better. Hot hide glue is strong as it work at a molecular level. If it create a bond it will fail, as the glue itself is brittle. So it's better not to let it jell, but to clamp fast and with a good pressure.
This way the extra not needed amount of glue will go out from the joint.
If the glue jell too soon, maybe it is too thick, or the workshop is too cold.
A good joint, as far as glue thickness and temperature go, is when the surfaces don't slip, after rubbing, even before they are clamped.
Good luck, Ruben, you have a nice project there...
oops, sorry Arnold, I was typing while you was answering...

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by Pino Cazzaniga

I think the faster the better. Hot hide glue is strong as it work at a molecular level. If it create a bond it will fail, as the glue itself is brittle. So it's better not to let it jell, but to clamp fast and with a good pressure.
This way the extra not needed amount of glue will go out from the joint.
If the glue jell too soon, maybe it is too thick, or the workshop is too cold.
A good joint, as far as glue thickness and temperature go, is when the surfaces don't slip, after rubbing, even before they are clamped.
Good luck, Ruben, you have a nice project there...
oops, sorry Arnold, I was typing while you was answering...

That's 100% answer my question thanks... I though so but I wasn't sure… I guess sometimes you can’t believe all that you read… I will keep it simple

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by wayne holmes

I agree that if it is a regular bar, then, of course, I would take out all of it.

I am thinking on doing the bass bar… it got crack at both ends it doesn’t look like its growing or its open… but it if recommended, may as well get it done now….

Well now seems like it’s a tough job… some people prefer to avoid to change the BB unless its 100% necessary… I can’t really tell if it need to be replace, because it’s too old or stiff… It does have a crack… that’s a bad sign…

Now stupid question… can it be shorten a little and inlay patch the ends??? Or it will be an abomination of my sick mind???

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ruben E garcia

I am thinking on doing the bass bar… it got crack at both ends it doesn’t look like its growing or its open… but it if recommended, may as well get it done now….

Well now seems like it’s a tough job… some people prefer to avoid to change the BB unless its 100% necessary… I can’t really tell if it need to be replace, because it’s too old or stiff… It does have a crack… that’s a bad sign…

Now stupid question… can it be shorten a little and inlay patch the ends??? Or it will be an abomination of my sick mind???

The bass is apart and will be edges as necessary to fit back when done. You do NOT want to take it apart again if after you string up the bass and the weakest area not the Old Bar splits more.

Carve out the bar and clean the bass since you might re-shape the top or not. You have the best view of that. Then repair the crack 100% after shaping top and then cleat it on top of the wood after fitting the bar along that surface but don't glue in bar. Then notch the fitted bar to go over the cleats and glue it down. Do not inlay the cleats as that will weaken the top. Everything should fit 100% with just finger pressure, no force. Then clamp to make a life long glue joint. All excess glue not needed will squeeze out. Don't be so scientific with the amount of glue.

The grain of the wood, especially the end grain by far will suck in some glue. What it doesn't need, it spits out. One time a saddle lifted on me after a repair. The Block was new, sucked in a lot of glue and the ebony came loose from the tail wire pulling it. Re-gluing fixed it as I did it myself in my shop. That, I had time and tools for. The restoration I didn't..

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

The bass is apart and will be edges as necessary to fit back when done. You do NOT want to take it apart again if after you string up the bass and the weakest area not the Old Bar splits more.

Carve out the bar and clean the bass since you might re-shape the top or not. You have the best view of that. Then repair the crack 100% after shaping top and then cleat it on top of the wood after fitting the bar along that surface but don't glue in bar. Then notch the fitted bar to go over the cleats and glue it down. Do not inlay the cleats as that will weaken the top. Everything should fit 100% with just finger pressure, no force. Then clamp to make a life long glue joint. All excess glue not needed will squeeze out. Don't be so scientific with the amount of glue.

The grain of the wood, especially the end grain by far will suck in some glue. What it doesn't need, it spits out. One time a saddle lifted on me after a repair. The Block was new, sucked in a lot of glue and the ebony came loose from the tail wire pulling it. Re-gluing fixed it as I did it myself in my shop. That, I had time and tools for. The restoration I didn't..

Thank you Ken for the detail explanation I was thinking on inlay patch bellow the BB (worng), I need to read about a little more about the BB replacement, So I am looking at SP patch, bass bar, block edges and Edges repair, ah and also cleats… I am going to be busy for a while

Ps I will let you guys know my plan in advantage just to be sure that I am in the right path

[Ken Smith]

This thread has been cleaned up by deleting the last several off-topic posts and its relative replies.

Ruben, you have the floor..