Fixes to reduce string tension.

[Thomas Erickson]

This is a good thread - better than most discussion I've seen on the subject. But still, I feel obligated to note that there's still (like always) a lot of grey area and overlap on the issues of actual string tension, perceived string tension, string length (fingering/interval lengths), and instrument response ("tightness", "looseness"). Obviously all of these contribute to how easily an instrument plays, but they're radically different issues that may or may not influence one another or even have anything to do with a particular bass and whatever playability issues it might have.

I think we could add to the quality info here by trying to separate some of these different aspects of "playability" and clarify them - or maybe give them their own threads - if for no other reason than to not perpetuate some of the common fallacies that so often seem to involve the issue of "string tension".

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Excess Camber is the biggest problem with string tension that I see. Pressing down the notes further to reach the fingerboard is no fun than if the board was mostly flat. I prefer a flat board, let the strings pull the neck a little, the camber/board leveled if not as perfect as desired and then raise the bridge height if you need more clearance to the board, not scoop the fingerboard.

Overlooking the fact that the shape of the fingerboard has no bearing on string tension, technically speaking, which makes my question a little off-topic for the thread, I'm not quite getting this - are you saying that with a new fingerboard you like to start with no camber (literally flat), and then evaluate it under tension and add minimal camber only as needed to get sufficient clearance - just sort of free-form? Rather than creating a particular "shaped" camber on the board from the start?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Thomas Erickson

This is a good thread - better than most discussion I've seen on the subject. But still, I feel obligated to note that there's still (like always) a lot of grey area and overlap on the issues of actual string tension, perceived string tension, string length (fingering/interval lengths), and instrument response ("tightness", "looseness"). Obviously all of these contribute to how easily an instrument plays, but they're radically different issues that may or may not influence one another or even have anything to do with a particular bass and whatever playability issues it might have.

I think we could add to the quality info here by trying to separate some of these different aspects of "playability" and clarify them - or maybe give them their own threads - if for no other reason than to not perpetuate some of the common fallacies that so often seem to involve the issue of "string tension".

Overlooking the fact that the shape of the fingerboard has no bearing on string tension, technically speaking, which makes my question a little off-topic for the thread, I'm not quite getting this - are you saying that with a new fingerboard you like to start with no camber (literally flat), and then evaluate it under tension and add minimal camber only as needed to get sufficient clearance - just sort of free-form? Rather than creating a particular "shaped" camber on the board from the start?

Ok, it's hard to address so many points in a single post but on my comment about starting flat, I prefer that. Double Basses do not have Truss Rods to adjust from string pull so the attempt is to build the Neck with FB as strong and straight as possible. Putting camber/curve into a FB before you know how much the strings will pull the neck and add to the camber is not the best way to go. You cannot put the wood back in the FB after scraping it out. It takes a few minutes to string up a bass. It takes many hours to replace the FB after butchering it unnecessarily. I have seen many basses come out of well known shops that in my opinion needed a new FB AFTER it was worked on. I am very adamant about my set-up work being as perfect as possible.

I do not at all consider this free-form if you are referring to having no method or measurement. In fact, the opposite is the case. Putting a camber into a FB before testing the string pull I would say IS Free-form because the string pull was NOT tested before cutting wood away that can't be put back. So, your perception of my comment was just the opposite in my opinion.

As far as science goes in relation to actual tension, throw that idea out. No one cares what the laboratory measurements are. The care only how the bass feels when you play it, period. If less camber or moving the Tailpiece or whatever makes the bass easier and/or softer to play, then that is less tension on your hand, wrist and tendons.

I once heard that if every person had to learn things on their own, people would die stupid! So, listen to the more experienced people when ever you can. Been there done that is a fact of life after you have been there and done that. From what I have seen, heard and read on line, too many new DB players are suffering from lack of knowledge, at the hands of misinformation and not having the correct knowledge that is already in existence.

With DB's, trial and error is often the way people set-up and adjust playability over time. Every bass is completely different and it takes what it takes to get it to its most favorable playing condition for a particular player.

The IS a great subject and the OP is a VERY experience Bassist, Musician and music educator with more experience than most. I feel great satisfaction when my ideas and experience can help another professional.

[Thomas Erickson]

Ok, thanks Ken for the clarification about fingerboard shape - I thought that was what you were saying, and I agree that starting with a concave fingerboard is counterintuitive.

As far as science goes in relation to actual tension, throw that idea out. No one cares what the laboratory measurements are. The care only how the bass feels when you play it, period. If less camber or moving the Tailpiece or whatever makes the bass easier and/or softer to play, then that is less tension on your hand, wrist and tendons.

Well, sure - on one hand there are so many measurements and variables that trying to apply much science to the thing is not going to be very productive. But that doesn't mean that we (bassists or luthiers, either one) should stick our heads in the sand rather than give some objective thought to the basic physical workings of the instrument, let alone blindly follow the fallacies and superstitions that float around the bass world and make no sense given a little consideration.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Thomas Erickson

Ok, thanks Ken for the clarification about fingerboard shape - I thought that was what you were saying, and I agree that starting with a concave fingerboard is counterintuitive.

Well, sure - on one hand there are so many measurements and variables that trying to apply much science to the thing is not going to be very productive. But that doesn't mean that we (bassists or luthiers, either one) should stick our heads in the sand rather than give some objective thought to the basic physical workings of the instrument, let alone blindly follow the fallacies and superstitions that float around the bass world and make no sense given a little consideration.

Sticking your head in the sand is a bit drastic. My point is not to call someone at MIT to help you set-up your bass. Go by feel and go with the flow! Measure what needs to be measured with simplicity and leave the Calculus in the classroom.

[Matthew Tucker]

To reduce tension on a 43" mensure why not first try Solo gauge strings? You can get solo Permanents.

[Thomas Erickson]

I think solo strings (tuned down) might be a bit drastic - I've played a few basses with solos tuned down in the past and found them to be pretty anemic. But, several strings come in light gauges. I know Helicores do, and apparently Flexocor92s do too, though I haven't seen them.

[Brian Gencarelli]

A status update:

So, I had a little extra time this weekend due to a light studio day on Saturday and having Monday off for President's day. I was able to get the bass out in the shop and get some work done.

1) The nut- it was about two business cards, so I filed the nut slots down some to lower it.

2) I scraped the FB and re-dressed it to address any extra scoop on the board. I didn't find it to be drastically scooped, but this took some of the extra out. Don't worry, I still have plenty of meat on the board.

3) I made a high saddle for the bass out of a nice piece of lacewood. I removed the old saddle, which was about the same thickness as the top and replaced it with one that sits about an inch and a half over the top. I left some space between the sides of the saddle and the top to avoid any additional saddle cracks. I also lengthened the TP wire (obviously) to accomodate the change and a little extra for feel.

4) The sound post was right on where Ken described, so I left it alone. (I have some ankle weights that I place on the top to hold up a sound post. They are covered in fabric and I just put a shop towel down underneath to prevent any scratches.

Result- The overall feel of the bass is much better. I don't consider the problem solved, but it is much improved. The raised saddle probably did more to alleviate the tension than anything. I think the tension is due to a geometry problem with the bass. I had one of my students here doing some odd jobs, so I got him to play the bass when he was done. It seems much more resonant to my ear.

Thanks again for all of the suggestions, I and my hands appreciate it!

Best,
Brian

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Thomas Erickson

I think solo strings (tuned down) might be a bit drastic - I've played a few basses with solos tuned down in the past and found them to be pretty anemic. But, several strings come in light gauges. I know Helicores do, and apparently Flexocor92s do too, though I haven't seen them.

The way I understand it, solos are designed to maintain "normal" tension when tuned UP a semitone on a standard 41.5" scale. So tuned down to EADG on a 41.5" scale reduces the tension quite a bit, which some people like.

However, to maintain that same lower tension on a 43" scale you'd need to tune down to Eb - so bringing it back up to EADG restores the tension almost to the "normal" spec.

So in fact, my logic would be that putting solos on may well be the LEASTdrastic of all changes!

And they are available and not too dear