The 5-String Double Bass

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Even though I don't really play a 5er, I like having one around. Here's a not so old one I got a few months back. It's a Hofner from 1977 but looks new.



It has Permanents on 4 strings and the Low B a very old 'Thomastic Precision' solid core string. Maybe it needs different strings, I can't tell because it's not what I normally play.

I posted this in Orchestra strings a few days ago but didn't get any replies. Now I see that I mentioned this a year ago here on this thread. Now that the bass is back and fully set-up I would like to hear a few opinions concerning the 'B' String.

I started a thread on 'Which 'B'?' some time ago but that was for a different bass which is long gone now.

I just got my *Hofner 5er (*old pics) back from Mike Magee in Pittsburgh and she's beautiful, the Bass, NOT Mike.. lol

It needed a full set-up so I had the Board pulled and replaced, a CF Rod put in the neck to stiffen it, the neck re-carved with the fake flame removed (shows some nice figure now), new bridge with adjusters and new Permanent strings from G to E.

We discussed the Strings and went with Permanents for the G-E but he thinks that the original 'B' a Thomastik 'Precision' solid core is a great sounding string. The previous 4/4 5er I sold ended up with that 'B' as well but a brand new string. The Strings on this bass were the originals from 1977. Although the bass has barely been played, they had been at or near tension for over 30 years now.

So, should I put a Permanent 'B' on there to match or what? The Permanents on there now sound great and Bow nice and smooth.

Also, this bass being a 3/4 Wilfer/Juzek style model (if not an actual Wilfer re-labeled) might be best utilized as a high 'C' 5er rather than an Orchestra 5er with Low 'B' but only time will tell. The bass IS fairly loud so I need to take it out to a rehearsal or two and see what she can do.

With some of the 5s I have had and tried I was able to either move the strings over into wider slots and move the 'B' off to the side to use it as a 4-stringer or just take off the 'B' from the bridge and tighten it back with some foam so it doesn't vibrate and use as a 4 as well. This bass however now has a really wide board and full 27mm spacing each string, same as the average orchestra 4, more or less.

So, keeping it set-up for Orchestra, would a Perm B be the best choice?

[Thomas Erickson]

What's the neck angle and bridge height like to get spacing that wide?

[Robert J Spear]

Having been in string work most of my life, I think that there are good acoustic and performance reasons why the four-string models prevailed in the violin/viola/cello world. That said, there are compelling reasons for the five-string bass in the modern orchestra. While fivers might be somewhat scarce here in the USA, a quick look at a recent photograph of the bass section of the Berlin Philharmonic will show that they are still a factor and that they still have advantages over the four-stringer with a C extension.

I just finished a five-stringer for Paul Unger of the Fort Worth Symphony, and it was a very rewarding collaboration in rethinking what orchestral bass players might need for the 21st century. If there's any interest in kicking this can down the road a bit longer, count me in. At the rate posts have occurred in this thread, we should all have time to fully contemplate our comments. As Mae West famously said, "Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." The bass maker's lament . . .

[Ken Smith]

Tom and Robert who both just posted, can you help me with my question above?

"So, keeping it set-up for Orchestra, would a Perm B be the best choice?"

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Thomas Erickson

What's the neck angle and bridge height like to get spacing that wide?

You mean in degrees? I don't know exactly but the Overstand is 30mm (1 3/16+") original, the String Spacing is 27.5mm (1 3/32") string to string, center to center and the Bridge height is 6 1/4" with the strings at the end of the fingerboard low at 4mm height on the G and 9mm on the E, the B is at 8mm off the FB. The FB is 4" wide at the end, 33 7/8" long and goes up to a 'B' at the end with a String Length of 41 3/4".

The spacing is wide and with the low string height, I can just barely clear the C-bouts on the outer strings with the Bow. If the spacing was narrower, the strings would be moved slightly inwards moving the outer string higher up on the bridge slightly for clearance as the overhang on the sides of the outer strings is playable but much less than a regular 4-string. Usually we see basses like this at 25-26mm spacing but with the wide board, why not go wider? The only improvement I could suggest is the neck being moved out to 35-40mm for the bridge to go higher off the Top to clear the Bouts better with still a low string height if desired. Still, I think I can play this bass and plan to try it at an Orchestra rehearsal or two in the least when the season starts.

[Robert J Spear]

I'm going to have to punt on this one. I don't play enough anymore to have had experience with all the strings that are out there now. I can say that for the low B I would tend to favor a steel rope-core because they are brighter and usually punchier. It's a bit of work to get them going because of that construction, but usually passages where you'd need a low B aren't fast. A string that is warm and mellow just gets muddy on most basses. Pizz is difficult enough without the extra damping.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Robert J Spear

I'm going to have to punt on this one. I don't play enough anymore to have had experience with all the strings that are out there now. I can say that for the low B I would tend to favor a steel rope-core because they are brighter and usually punchier. It's a bit of work to get them going because of that construction, but usually passages where you'd need a low B aren't fast. A string that is warm and mellow just gets muddy on most basses. Pizz is difficult enough without the extra damping.

I agree with you on the string type but there are many many pieces with fast low passaged like in Shost. 5th, Beeth. 3rd, 5th, 6th.. and anything where the basses double the cellos. Many play the lines up an octave but I try and play it as written. For this I want a string that responds quick with the bow. Often the passage is mid tempo and jumps down for a note or two and you need it to grab or you are just playing behind the tempo.

I have used Perm B before but I was told that the current string Thom. Precision is a good 'B' but, it's as old as the bass. I need to but a new string so it's either that 'B' which has a solid core or a Perm. One bass I tried had Flex. 92s but the 'B' was a Jaegar blue/medium and played ok mixed with the 92s. Now that I have the Perm's on the bass which play well, I need a 'B' to match.

[Robert J Spear]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I agree with you on the string type but there are many, many pieces with fast low passaged like in Shost. 5th, Beeth. 3rd, 5th, 6th.. and anything where the basses double the cellos.

Those guys were seriously trying to see if bassists could take a joke. And I for sure would argue that Beethoven never intended the passage in the 6th to be played cleanly since it is meant to rumble and evoke a storm (one of which is passing overhead even as I write).

We will have to develop a bass that is intended for fifths tuning and that is fast enough to start bringing out these kinds of passages cleanly. That will surely mean another look at what an orchestra bass is supposed to sound like, how it should be played (yeah, I know; really well). This is currently where my head is at in bass development.

BTW, I saw a 5'er not along ago that had the low B string spacing very close to the E. Other strings were spaced about normally. The bridge was modified to get the B out of the way, so to speak. The player said that he needed the B from time to time, but not often enough to give it equal standing. I tried playing the bass (everyone else fled from the room), and the arrangement wasn't hard to get used to. I think somewhere in the forum someone else has already mentioned setting the bass up this way, but it was the first one I'd ever seen.

That's what I like about the bass world. Just when you think you've seen it all, you haven't.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Robert J Spear

Those guys were seriously trying to see if bassists could take a joke. And I for sure would argue that Beethoven never intended the passage in the 6th to be played cleanly since it is meant to rumble and evoke a storm (one of which is passing overhead even as I write).

We will have to develop a bass that is intended for fifths tuning and that is fast enough to start bringing out these kinds of passages cleanly. That will surely mean another look at what an orchestra bass is supposed to sound like, how it should be played (yeah, I know; really well). This is currently where my head is at in bass development.

BTW, I saw a 5'er not along ago that had the low B string spacing very close to the E. Other strings were spaced about normally. The bridge was modified to get the B out of the way, so to speak. The player said that he needed the B from time to time, but not often enough to give it equal standing. I tried playing the bass (everyone else fled from the room), and the arrangement wasn't hard to get used to. I think somewhere in the forum someone else has already mentioned setting the bass up this way, but it was the first one I'd ever seen.

That's what I like about the bass world. Just when you think you've seen it all, you haven't.

They tried 5ths over a century or two ago in France and it failed when they heard the intonation as compared to playing in fourths. Why re-invent the wheel here. I tried 5ths for half a day and my mind was quite scrambled along with my tendons stretched and sore. I prefer under 42" string length with 4ths. I had one bass at 44 1/2" for a couple of years and it was no fun playing that length. Now it's down to 42" and much easier to play.

On the spacing and crowning for the B at the bridge, yes some bridges are cut like that for 5s but if you go and measure 100 bridges, the spacing from center to center in MMs, tell me how many are spaced evenly on even a 4 string. Most basses are not spaced perfectly, even to the eye. I can see the point of doing this to a B making it closer but it might be hard to jump down and not over reach for the B being closer not to mention hitting the C Bout with the bow hairs or the corner with the Frog.

What Beeth. meant to be played and what is required now is way way different. 3 or maybe 4 gut strings with high action playing the sextuplets in the 9th? lol.. in your dreams. That last page was like a pink slip. I think that's why those parts say Cello-Bass, same part. LOL.. Means "Lots Of Luck!" ... lol.. (the other meaning!)

[Richard Prowse]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Also, this bass being a 3/4 Wilfer/Juzek style model (if not an actual Wilfer re-labeled) might be best utilized as a high 'C' 5er rather than an Orchestra 5er with Low 'B' but only time will tell. The bass IS fairly loud so I need to take it out to a rehearsal or two and see what she can do.

I've fooled around quite a bit with C strings over the years. The best C string I found was a Corelli (Forte - from memory). The most fun I had with C strings was playing solo pieces up a fourth (same fingering) but, apart from that, I've found them a bit of a waste of time. I mean, they only add a few inches to how high you can play. Still, those solo pieces, up a fourth, can really sing like a cello. Ah, but there again, I'm a double bass player - let the cellists do that stuff.

[Steve Alcott]

Anybody ever try (on a 5 stringer) a high C string and a C extension?

[Richard Prowse]

Originally Posted by Steve Alcott

Anybody ever try (on a 5 stringer) a high C string and a C extension?

Okay, I'm listening.

[Ken Smith]

My quest if ONLY for a Low 'B' to match the Permanent set at the moment,

[Brian Gencarelli]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

My quest if ONLY for a Low 'B' to match the Permanent set at the moment,

Ken,

I think the Perm B would be a good solution. I really like the low C, so I don't see why it would be much different.

You could also go with a spirocore, but it will sound better if it's old.

FWIW,
Brian

[Alex Verbree]

If you've got the spare scratch, I'm sure a Genssler (sp?) string would be the best. aside from that, I think most 5ers I've heard of have a spiro low B because it's reliably loud and articulate.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Alex Verbree

If you've got the spare scratch, I'm sure a Genssler (sp?) string would be the best. aside from that, I think most 5ers I've heard of have a spiro low B because it's reliably loud and articulate.

Those choices to match the sound and tension or a Permanent set already on the bass?

I have a Spiro solo Extension E/C on the my Claudot and the other 3 strings are Original Flexocors. It sounds good but not a perfect match. It does work however.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

My quest if ONLY for a Low 'B' to match the Permanent set at the moment,

I like the Thomastic Superflexible B. It has bite, but it's not as bright as the Spiro.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

I like the Thomastic Superflexible B. It has bite, but it's not as bright as the Spiro.

Where would you place the Permanent string in that group being that the other 4 are Perm's as well.

Oh, and I ordered the B yesterday with some other stock I needed.

Should be here today.

[Robert J Spear]

Originally Posted by Steve Alcott

Anybody ever try (on a 5 stringer) a high C string and a C extension?

Never saw anything like it. I have seen 5-stringers with a high C and a low E, and with a low B and a high G. It would be interesting to see (and hear) a 5-er with a C-extension on the low E. But, I think that would be quite a cumbersome rig to handle.

[Eric Hochberg]

I had a chance yesterday to briefly play Joe Guastefeste's Busan which is set up with five strings. The fingerboard is extended width over the neck on the B side and the bridge takes a dive from the E to B string putting the B somewhat out of the way. Beautiful bass.