Upton Basses

[Michael Case]

Let me interject by saying this. I think you're responding to a lot of what Ken was saying in reply to my question asking if an Upton would be a reasonable upgrade to my Czech factory bass.

[Ken Smith]

Jeff, referring to the end of your Post let me say a few things here.

1) Where would Upton be if there was no TalkBass?

2) Did you know he made a deal for the upper banner on TB and EVERY DB Forum of TB and TB will not even discuss sharing it?

3) Did you know he also bought for 2 or more years all the extra bandwidth on the Upper Side Banner on Every DB Forum as well and TB would Not sell anyone else anymore ad space because Upton made a deal that no one else can advertise there? BTW, This year, Upton is no longer paying for that space but too many people are bitter about the TB/Upton monopoly and will not advertise there anymore.

4) Did you know I tried to buy Banner Space on TB for my Bows and was refused because Upton owned ALL the bandwidth?

5) Did you know that Mods carefully watched what I or others in the Business said about Upton and warned, edited or deleted Posts that looked unfavorable to Upton or even closed Threads that got heated?

6) Did you know that TB on Uptons behalf tried to control a specific image of them in order to secure their advertising monies from Upton?

7) Did you know that my leaving TB was a direct result from a Mod deleting my Post questioning a 'Shill' (planted endorsee) posting about their stripped down overpriced Chinese Bows?

8) Did you know that both Upton and myself buys Bows from the same shop but with the exception of my design and we/KSB only takes the highest grade sticks NOT stripped down?

9) Did you know Upton posted on threads about my Bows on TB to get attention drawn to their own products?

I have nothing personal against Upton Products at all, period.

This Forum exists mainly because TB made me sick from their actions and I still have a lot of friends and customers that want to Talk real Bass so here we are, no Bull, just Bass.... Commercial Free as well!

[Jeff Gellis]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I still have a lot of friends and customers that want to Talk real Bass so here we are, no Bull, just Bass.... Commercial Free as well!

Touche Ken! And you know a lot about the bass and always willing to share some great tidbits and anticdotes.

One other thing, it's a fine line between preditory and crafty business practice. Many applaud Bill Gates as the businessman of the century. Certainly, you can't argue with what he has accomplished. His competitors call him ruthless and preditory. Is all fair in love & in war (business too)? Also, in a free market, doesn't the "Darwinesk nature" of natural selection make those that are best adapted to competing in business the ones that survive? I'm not defending Upton. I am simply making the point that the challenge is to be the best at marketing (provided you have a good product).

[Michael Case]

The problem is the marketing is superior to the product. And it's gotten to the point at TBDB where a person can't ask about or give an opinion about a bass with out Upton getting defensive. There have been threads in the basses section over there where the Upton people didn't even answer specific questions asked by an original poster. When I challenged this it turned into a big flame war. The days of getting good advice about purchasing an instrument at TBDB are over, unless you are ONLY interested in an Upton bass.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

The problem is the marketing is superior to the product. And it's gotten to the point at TBDB where a person can't ask about or give an opinion about a bass with out Upton getting defensive. There have been threads in the basses section over there where the Upton people didn't even answer specific questions asked by an original poster. When I challenged this it turned into a big flame war. The days of getting good advice about purchasing an instrument at TBDB are over, unless you are ONLY interested in an Upton bass.

I agree with you, and I must admit that I have been in the middle of a couple of those flame wars, but those days are over. I will have to disagree with you regarding the marketing. Their basses are worth the money and I would and have put my bass up against much more expensive instruments without embarrassment. However, there are many other choices in the price range of an Upton meriting consideration and to pretend that an Upton is the best bass on the market is folly. Good bass for the money and a solid value? IMO yes.

[Michael Case]

I don't disagree with your assessment of Upton's basses, they are damn fine instruments for the bread.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

The problem is the marketing is superior to the product. And it's gotten to the point at TBDB where a person can't ask about or give an opinion about a bass with out Upton getting defensive. There have been threads in the basses section over there where the Upton people didn't even answer specific questions asked by an original poster. When I challenged this it turned into a big flame war. The days of getting good advice about purchasing an instrument at TBDB are over, unless you are ONLY interested in an Upton bass.

Thank you for shedding light from another pair of eyes other than mine.

To Jeff, in a Microsoft thing, they don't BUY the media and have them shut the rest of the competition up when they speak like TB does being his own 'Junk Yard Dog'. TB Refused to sell me advertising because as they Put it, Upton OWNS all the available bandwidth.

In the real world, this is known as 'anti-trust' tactics.

"Even a broken clock is right twice a day!"

[Michael Case]

There are some more shadier marketing tactics that Upton uses. I don't wish to go into it on a public forum, but I know for a fact this is so.

[Jeff Gellis]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Thank you for shedding light from another pair of eyes other than mine.

To Jeff, in a Microsoft thing, they don't BUY the media and have them shut the rest of the competition up when they speak like TB does being his own 'Junk Yard Dog'. TB Refused to sell me advertising because as they Put it, Upton OWNS all the available bandwidth.

In the real world, this is known as 'anti-trust' tactics.

You are 100% correct. That reflects badly on TB not Upton, in my opinion. They should encourage advertisers from any reputable source. Shutting out a particular company does not seem right. That's a business decision they feel is profitable for them I guess? Who knows?
In the case of Microsoft they have the goods and infrastructure that no one else really has. In the case of available DBs at this price point, there are a few viable options, and your point is that no competition is possible because of TB willing to sell all ad space to one vendor. I see your point.

[Sam Sherry]

I've watched this thread with interest as it involves so many people I respect.

UPTON BASS:

It's no secret that I'm Gary Upton's pal. I'm also his lawyer (which doesn't matter here. I'm just noting it as "full disclosure." I'm not trying to intimidate anybody. If you feel intimidated by this post you need a better social life.)

Gary's been a real friend and has gone out of his way repeatedly to treat me well. He has treated the people I've referred to him well. One of the things that I most like about Gary is that, like Ken Smith, he's a guy with a healthy dose of ambition about his business. That is a compliment in my eyes and is meant for both of them.

As far as I know, there are several factories in Romania. I don't know which factory builds for Upton and I sure as heck don't know who builds for JR/Ken/lots of others. I don't know that it's the same and I don't know that it's different. Don't assume that Gary's stuff is the same as Ken's, JR's and vice versa even if you discover that it comes from the same factory. If you're buying a bass, do research. Compare. Try to play the bass you're buying if possible. Just because people say it all the time doesn't mean it ain't true.

Rumor has it that there are people who don't like Gary as much as I do. So be it. The same is true of me and just about everybody else I've ever met (with the exception of Paul Warburton). I take it all with a grain of salt. You don't have to. It's the web. Do your research. Form your own conclusions. Be open to change.

TALKBASS.COM

It's also no secret that I used to be a moderator on TB/DB and that one of the main reasons I stopped was dis-satisfaction with the commercial posting policy and commercial activity on the site generally. You can make of that what you will. Chris FitzGerald continues to impress me as a person and as a musician.

My general observation about the site is that things do go in cycles. People come; people learn; people go. Sometimes they fade out and sometimes they leave with a bang. Whatever.

One of the things I REALLY LIKE about Ken's site is that there's a strong chance that people are accurately identified by name. I am a big supporter of the notion that the accuracy and value of online advice is increased when people don't hide behind aliases. Bravo to Ken for doing it right. Bravo to Ken for being upfront about what he thinks and above all for formulating his opinions based on personal experience.

One of the things I don't like about this thread is that I think it's not classy to talk down about another forum. That's my opinion and y'all are free to do whatchya want. As for me, I'm gonna practice . . . .

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Yes,
Gary Upton made a sweet deal over on TB and got his name plastered all over there. As a businessman trying to sell his product he has done a tremendous job. If the network airing the Super Bowl made an exclusive deal to air ads only by Ford and froze GM out, we'd be applauding Ford for making such a deal.
I certainly wouldn't fault the network. However, an internet forum such as TB has an obligation to ensure to its members that it is completely fair to all concerned so that there is a free exchange of ideas and information.
I would think the beef really is with TB in not keeping the Forum open and free. Yes, they show favoritism, although NS and Wan Bernadel basses have ad space. A certain distinction here is that the other advertisers don't openly discuss their products on the forum.

All this said, this discussion is really about how a particular dealer conducts their business. FWIW, they have always treated me fairly and I have a nice bass. That's what it all comes down to. Everything else, to me, is secondary.

Let's keep this place open and free where we can all agree to disagree. Time for a beer.

[Michael Case]

Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard

Time for a beer.

Like my dad always says "it's 5:00 somewhere!"

I feel you, personally the Upton basses aren't what I need at this point. It's pretty wild though I live minutes away from David Gage, Paul Basie, Ideal Music, and I can spit and find a good bass for sale on the block I live on, but the Upton is so aggressive in getting their name out I almost forget my options. At this stage in the game Upton is not an option for me.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

I feel you, personally ..........

You'll need to buy me a beer first.

[Michael Case]

Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard

You'll need to buy me a beer first.

I guess the bass player thing wont work on you eh?

[Jeff Gellis]

Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard

Let's keep this place open and free where we can all agree to disagree. Time for a beer.

There exists an air of civility here that TB could only dream about. Great reparte!

[Ron Lacey]

Originally Posted by Jeff Gellis

There exists an air of civility here that TB could only dream about. Great reparte!

Yeah, this is pretty disgusting . If you guys don't start some decent flame wars I may have to go talk to my wife.

[Michael Case]

Flame on:
Why is talking to your wife better than being on this board?