Rosin

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Kontrabass Violin

What about the application of rosin to the hair? Any particular methods people use and find more effective? What about applying rosin to good bows vs. applying rosin to bad bows?

-Trevor

I always and only make down strokes from Frog to Tip and not back and forth like you might with the 'powdery type' Violin or Cello Rosins.

Things that matter in this order (maybe) are a Good Bow, Good Hair and Good Rosin. Rosining old worn hair needs re-rosining more often. Using bad or ineffective Rosin is pointless. Trying to learn or play with a Bow less than your ability or needs is also not a good thing and I always tell people to get the best Bow they can afford and then some.

I played for 20 years professionally in NY doing just about everything BUT playing in a regular Symphony Orchestra doing all the classical works. Now that I have been playing in a two Orchestras for about 5 years or so I see now that Orchestral works are the most demanding Bow playing one can possibly do. I have learned more about Bows, Rosins and Bowing in the last 5 years then I did in my 20 years as a NY Pro. Even though I studied with 2 members or the NY Phil., I never got the chance to use all of what I knew until now. Within the last 6 months I have talked with both my former teachers to let them know this and I am sure it was good news to their ears.

[Jeff Moote]

My rosin experiences, chronologically:

• Some sort of Hidersine given to me with a rental when I first picked up the bass - this stuff was crap. Just useless.
• Carlsson: nice and smooth, good grip. I can see why it's popular with the pros, but many are either still using Pops or are shifting to Kolstein and Oak.
• Kolstein Soft: I liked it at first (during winter), then the warm weather came. It nearly ruined my bow hair, and is very difficult to apply unless kept frozen. I imagine I'd like the harder grades of Kolstein, but I probably won't bother now that I use...
• Oak, the new stuff from Arnold Gregorian. I got a Medium and Hard cake, per his recommendation on the website. I haven't touched the Hard, but then again all I've been playing is orchestral repertoire. I'll probably use the Hard for solo playing, but realistically I could see Medium working for all playing in all conditions. Soft might be nice in the winter, but if I need that I may try the Kolstein again (it's in cold storage )

[David Powell]

OK, I'll add my $.01, and that must be taken as coming from someone with only 4 yrs. experience with a bow, starting with something (fibreglass) that should not even be called a bow. After a year I upgraded to a Brazilwood bow which I have now re-haired with black hair and have been using for the past few years with some different rosins. I do practice daily, so the four years has been fairly fruitful, but also full of experimentation and some dead ends. I use a German style bow also and Helicore Orchestral strings.

I started with Pops on the advice of my favorite string shop friend here and that was great with my old cheap plywood bass and about all that would get a good sound from that instrument. Still, it was pretty harsh. On the recommendation of my teacher, I cut that with Hidersine #2, couple swipes of Pops, couple swipes of Hidersine. That was a lot smoother sounding and still had fairly good grab if the bow was warmed up. That might not be the same as the Hidersine Jeff used. I also had some "give-away" Hidersine all-weather rosin that fits Jeff's description in total;- totally useless.

I started trying Carlsson rosin when I purchased a spare bow while my first bow was being repaired due to a careless accident and I found that while it was less scratchy sounding than Pops, it didn't have dependable grab on the low strings and also created a huge amount of powder. By this time I had upgraded to an inexpensive carved bass with 5 strings and getting that low BB to start early in the morning was like an old Diesel on a cold day, so it was back to Pops for a spell. Finally I started using Gaston Brohan's Oak in all three grades. That is certainly my current favorite. Depending on the weather, I get good results with all three grades but reserve the hard grade for temps above 80 F.

I still check back and forth with my spare bow on different days, which still has white hair, just to make sure;- but it seems so far that I have just been confirming my preference for the black hair. I find that I use far less rosin of any kind with that hair, and a couple of swipes with Pops can last a really long time, but it is also really scratchy with the black hair. The oak medium works best when it is not too hot and I will probably go back to the oak soft in the autumn. I like being able to mix these when it seems useful. Having 3 grades of the same stuff makes getting it just right easier.

I have found it very useful to make sure the bow hair is warm before I add any rosin to it. I just slide it briskly over the strings and usually after a few passes it starts catching and I can tell if I need to refresh the rosin. In spite of my best efforts, I just can not get rosin to build up on my bow hair, my strings, or anywhere on my bass. It seems to come off gradually as a powder onto the strings and wipes off with a soft cloth. There are some very small specs on the body of the bass, but it is finished with nitrocellulose and the rosin doesn't like to stick to it and it comes off with a little Gibson guitar polish.

Also, I've had the same cake of Pops since 2002. In an odd turn of circumstance, I actually had the Pops for several months before I had a bass. It was fresh in 2002 and does not seem to have changed or hardened at all. Like Ken reports, it is a fairly messy, sticky stuff that if left out of the container on a table top will flatten out onto the table in spite of the paper catsup cup it comes in. It must be kept in the plastic box or it will glue itself to something. The Carlsson was almost as bad.

I would imagine that depending on the bass, the strings, the bow, and the hair, and also the weather, that there is just no one best rosin for every player in every situation. It isn't dirt cheap to experiment, but fortunately rosin is not so expensive that it is cost prohibitive to try some different ones out. Definitely it seems that one will work better than another for most players.

[Jeff Moote]

Lots of good points David:

Originally Posted by David Powell

That might not be the same as the Hidersine Jeff used. I also had some "give-away" Hidersine all-weather rosin that fits Jeff's description in total;- totally useless.

That sounds about right. I'm sure the whole brand isn't crap, but it certainly isn't "the good stuff". If you needed something as hard as what I had (say, you're Gary Karr or something) I'd just go with cello rosin (as Gary does).

Having 3 grades of the same stuff makes getting it just right easier.

I agree! Right before I got the Oak I was mixing some old dried up Carlsson's with my Kolstein soft (alternating strokes) and got passable results, but having varying grades of the same stuff is nice.

I have found it very useful to make sure the bow hair is warm before I add any rosin to it. I just slide it briskly over the strings and usually after a few passes it starts catching and I can tell if I need to refresh the rosin.

I usually do this, then play for at least a minute or two before considering any new rosin. Since I started with the Oak medium, I use much less than I used to.

It must be kept in the plastic box or it will glue itself to something. The Carlsson was almost as bad.

Hmm, my Carlsson cake is nothing like this - now it's very dry and powdery (getting to be rather useless) but even when fresh it was more like the Oak medium than any other rosin I've tried.

I would imagine that depending on the bass, the strings, the bow, and the hair, and also the weather, that there is just no one best rosin for every player in every situation.

...

Definitely it seems that one will work better than another for most players.

Again, I agree 100%. Once you find what works it's a great thing - rosin is probably nearly as personal as strings.

[stan haskins]

Originally Posted by Jeff Moote

Lots of good points David:
That sounds about right. I'm sure the whole brand isn't crap, but it certainly isn't "the good stuff". If you needed something as hard as what I had (say, you're Gary Karr or something) I'd just go with cello rosin (as Gary does).

I agree! Right before I got the Oak I was mixing some old dried up Carlsson's with my Kolstein soft (alternating strokes) and got passable results, but having varying grades of the same stuff is nice.

I usually do this, then play for at least a minute or two before considering any new rosin. Since I started with the Oak medium, I use much less than I used to.

Hmm, my Carlsson cake is nothing like this - now it's very dry and powdery (getting to be rather useless) but even when fresh it was more like the Oak medium than any other rosin I've tried.

Again, I agree 100%. Once you find what works it's a great thing - rosin is probably nearly as personal as strings.

Good discussion. I never experienced any of the problems you guys mentioned with Carlsson's, though- it's never gotten powdery or dried out on me since I started using it about 10 years ago.

I think the oak might be astep up, though - I got to try it once or twice, and it seemed to Grab "perfectly", without the added "thump" on the attack that you can get Carlssons, Pops, or Kolstein's.

IME, Pops wears out to fast. It's very sticky, then it's gone. It's not worth the trouble fo me.

[Jeff Tranauskas]

When I first started using a bow I tried Carlsson rosin with limited success.

Then I switched to Clarity Winter. The Clarity was OK when the humidity was low but didn't work well on humid days.

After a while I was given a cake of Pops and have used it ever since.
Pops is messy but I usually wipe the bass down after playing it anyway.
I like the grab I get from the Pops and, truth be told , I need all the help I can get.


With all of the positive comments on the Oak rosin I will definitely get some and see how it runs.
Keep the posts coming. We will eventually get to the best rosin.

[Joel Larsson]

I thought it is time to revive this thread. I'm on a rosin rampage anyway.

I started out with Nymans, but it's been such a long time that I cannot give any proper opinion on it. All I remember is that it used to break into pieces if you dropped it, but that might be because my cake was very old.

Pops was a great help when I wasn't good enough to have a good tone. I just applied a lot of it, and it produced a loud note. But as I kept developing, I got the feeling that it was overly brutal or harsh, and that maybe it actually prevented me from getting a good sound. That being said, Pops in the hands of a great player is great, but I was using it as a shortcut to a controlled tone. Today, the things keeping me from trying it again is that it seems to produce more sizzling than most other good rosins, and that it produces such a ridiculous amount of gunk. I have seen so many basses whose varnish is ruined forever because the owner hasn't wiped off the residues every day. The other rosins either produce a dustlike powder that doesn't harm the varnish, or neraly none at all.

So I got myself a cake of Carlsson. I immediately got the feeling that this is a good rosin, but that I wasn't able to get the grip and attack that I did get with Pops. (I didn't want as much attack, but SOME.) I realised that this was partly because I had been cheating with my attack by the Pops overload, but after almost a year I got tired of constantly trying to make a sound in the orchestra. Maybe it requires a more responsive bass, or the thick Eudoxas I was playing just didn't fit the rosin.

Gaston Brohan's Oak rosin was next upon the bill. I really, really liked this rosin. I mostly use the soft cake, and a swipe of medium, but I'm mostly residing in Arctic climates. The Oak has more bite than Carlsson, but doesn't sizzle and is more gentle than Pops. Allowed me to increase my dynamic range - louder than Carlsson, quieter than Pops. Four times as expensive as Pops if you use two cakes - which you ought to do, it's a treat! - but it lasts a lot longer, too. The principal player in a München orchestra tried my bow, though, and complained that my rosin was too dry and that I really needed another rosin. He suggested - Nymans! If there was one thing I remembered about Nymans, it was that it seemed so very dry to me... so, I've realised I have to try the Carlsson and Nymans one more time before settling with something. Still had some more brands to go, though. However, I might very well be going back to this Oak stuff someday.

Then, I decided to try the most expensive stuff out there, the Liebenzeller Metall-Kolophonium, made of Larch gum with gold dust and meteor iron and some other really cool stuff in it. Four times the price per cake as Pops, and a quarter the size! They say it lasts a long time, though. Whatever. I wouldn't play the bass if I was tight-bottomed when it comes to money. After the recent rehairing of my bow, it was time to try it out. So far, it may very well provide me with the sweetest sound yet; it's tonal qualities are just great. If Pops is a lot 'in your face', and Oak is a lot less so, this is even less obnoxious in it's projection, if that term be used. It doesn't lack excitation, though. I would perhaps have second thoughts about using it as a solo rosin, but the trial period is far from over. It'll ake a great orchestral rosin. Besides its sweet sound, it can also make the bass go VROOOOM!! without you losing control of it. It leaves a minimum of residue on the bass. There is one major problem that hasn't gone away yet, though - I just can't get a smooth, soft attack on a bow near the frog. Yes, there are some technical difficulties to take under consideration, but I could do it before. Now it sounds all metallic and scratchy. I've tried to even it out and remove any excess rosin with a piece of cloth, but no. I hope I only have to let the rosin break in a bit more - this is so close!!
The cake I have is the Gold Version. There is also a Silver-lead rosin that is said to be suitable for the Double Bass. Maybe an extra swipe of that could make the harshness near the frog go away... it could perhaps also be a result of some defect in the hair..? It has also been said that it should be used very sparingly, and maybe I was too eager to get the strings playing and applied too much of it as once. Still, I DID wipe it with a cloth...

I have a cake of Petz Premium (I thought I'd go right for their most expensive type) on the way, which is supposed to be a bit reminiscent of Pops, but with a more 'natural' feel - probably coming from the fact that this is beewax-based (which I though was greasy, but I suppose it works) as opposed to the synthetic Pops. I'll try this, and hopefully some Melos, before summer's end, if I get my other bow back from its repair in time, or if the Liebenzeller doesn't start playing properly.

[Rick Auvil]

Ken's description, "I always and only make down strokes from Frog to Tip and not back and forth like you might with the 'powdery type' Violin or Cello Rosins" validates something I wondered about.
I noticed our principal bassist applying his rosin in exactly the manner Ken described. I started doing this with various brands and have found much success with Carlsson and Pirastro (medium). This technique seems to give me a nice, even grab. Is there a specific reason for applying it in the "frog to tip" direction?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Rick Auvil

Ken's description, "I always and only make down strokes from Frog to Tip and not back and forth like you might with the 'powdery type' Violin or Cello Rosins" validates something I wondered about.
I noticed our principal bassist applying his rosin in exactly the manner Ken described. I started doing this with various brands and have found much success with Carlsson and Pirastro (medium). This technique seems to give me a nice, even grab. Is there a specific reason for applying it in the "frog to tip" direction?

Yes, because the stickier Bass Rosin will pull enough to break the hairs for one. Second, the dominant stroke with the Bow is a down stroke so why not Rosin in the same direction? Down stroke always and only with Bass Rosin. It's just how I learned..

[Joel Larsson]

Also, since nearer to the frog is most player's favourite spot, it wears off quicker there, and sweeps from the frog to the tip naturally applies a little more there, because of your natural arm weight. Also, long strokes eliminates any irregularities that might be the result of more ferocious rubbing in the the hair. That's how I learned it. Although, I think I've also heard that the dustier and harder brands might call for more "rubbing", but any hard cakes have proven themselves quite unplayable back home in Scandinavia so I've yet to actually try a really hard rosin. (What I also learned from one of my teachers was that you can apply just a little extra at the tip, to improve the grip out there - but be careful; as Ken said, the tip is where the hair tends to come loose.)

An update on how my rosin voyage is proceeding:
I really loved the Liebenzeller Metall-Kolophonoum - the really expensive one with gold and meteoric iron dust in it - as it had a very versatile sound that allowed you to take full advantage of the dynamics of the instrument, but when I got a week in an orchestra I found that despite my hopes and my efforts, it just wouldn't produce the loudness and bite that is kind of essential in a small-size section playing Romanti symphonies... hopefully, if I ever get that other bow of mine back from the repairman, I could use one bow for solo/chamber/Classical playing and one for the heavier duties.
Also, if you have an instrument of a really high grade, where you don't have to work so much for the loud, ringing notes, I think that the Liebenzeller would make you enjoy yourself even more.

Anyways, so I immediately changed to Petz Premium, which is probably as close to Pops you can come without adding artificials. Really nice bite, quite good tone (although not as sweet as the Liebenzeller or Gaston Brohan's Oak) it really is a Pops without the rough edges, so to speak. Like Pops, it leaves gunk rather than dust on the strings, but thankfully, not as much and so far it's stayed away from the table. It sizzles a bit, which the Liebenzeller didn't, but again, not as much as Pops.