Endpin talk...

[davidseidel]

Wondering as Ken asks what difference there may be between tilting the bass with a straight pin as compared to the Laborie angled one? Also with the new hardwood ones are they adjustable length? Could they be installed straight if one wanted to? Lots of questions as I have never tried an angled pin but interested in what its like and very interested in using a wooden one such as this either way. Also with the Laborie pin how does it work if one is sitting to play? I mostly stand out of choice myself but sometimes in orchestra work of course sitting may be the norm. drilling the block does seem a bit extreme especially in an old valuable instrument but if it works .......

[Ken Smith]

You are not just drilling the Block. You are putting a hole in the Rib as well!

On the restorations I have had recently, many of the Basses needed a new Block and these only had one hole in it. Out of 8 Basses opened up, 4 or 5 needed a new Block (I don't recall if the Gilkes was replaced or trimmed as it looks old but not as old as the neck block).

I can't imagine how a Block will last with two holes being drilled. I have only seen a few Basses with a separate Tailwire Socket and separate Endpin so I can't say for sure if this weakens the Block over time but using either Endpin over time is double duty on the Block itself.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by davidseidel

Wondering as Ken asks what difference there may be between tilting the bass with a straight pin as compared to the Laborie angled one? Also with the Laborie pin how does it work if one is sitting to play?

It's all about the balance. When I tilt my bass back on its straight endpin, it falls to the left if I don't hold it with my left hand. With the angled hole, the bass more or less stays back without falling. It takes some practice to find the balance point but when you do, you find you don't have to hold the instrument up with your hand, freeing it up.

When sitting, I don't know how critical the angled hole is as I can position the bass in a more open cello-like position with the normal endpin. You would probably need a shorter Laborie pin for sitting depending upon the height of the stool.

[Ken Smith]

What are you guys playing that all of a sudden a regular endpin is not good enough 150 years after Dragonetti?

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

What are you guys playing that all of a sudden a regular endpin is not good enough 150 years after Dragonetti?

For me, it's about trying to find away to play the bass with less physical stress as I've been dealing with a bout of RSIs in both arms, wrists and hands. The Laborie pin seems to be helping. If anyone is interested, I wrote a piece about my RSI experience on Jason Heath's wonderful bass blog, doublebassblog.com.

[Nick Hart]

On the idea of endpins, In CCM this year Mr. Laszlo imported some titanium endpins and these things sounded amazing. It seemed that for the people with play with short endpins, the sound increased drastically, for somebody like me who is 6'2" with a big bass that needs to be elevated, it helped but wasn't worth the $160 dollars. These titanium endpins really did wonders for some basses, especially those in the 20k price range. Made them sound older and a much more rich and bassy sound. It is something to check out for all those looking for an endpin change.

[Charles Federle]

Titanium is something I have wanted to try for a long time, but have never been able to get ahold of. Is there any contact information for anyone wanting to try them ?

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

What are you guys playing that all of a sudden a regular endpin is not good enough 150 years after Dragonetti?

Are you serious? Many many things are different about the equipment we use now and what dragonetti used. Steel strings, modern bows, functional tuning machines, 4 strings, 5 strings...

Just because a straight end pin is the way it was done then doesn't make it the best way!

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Brian Roessler

Are you serious? Many many things are different about the equipment we use now and what dragonetti used. Steel strings, modern bows, functional tuning machines, 4 strings, 5 strings...

Just because a straight end pin is the way it was done then doesn't make it the best way!

Ok, I agree with you on the 'since then' thing to a degree but lets look at a few things closer. Since then, these things have been developed and became the standard with little change insight;

4-strings tuned in fourths standardized mainly by W.Hause, the first method for Bass (Prague School, Wenzel Hause, Josef Hrabe, Anton Slama, Emanuel Storch, Franz Simandl, etc). The fourths were in use in London but with 3-strings while France was using 5ths with 3-strings but poorly. Visiting German Orchestras to London changed their fate as did London Orchestras later playing in France.

Steel Strings, Orchestra Tuning.

Solo rep required for every Orchestra Bassist

Straight Steel Rod Endpin and now some CF

Adjustable Bridge feet used by many in USA but not all and rarely in Europe as it is needed less.

Mixed fingerings and Pivots as well as using the 3rd finger in the first 6 positions.

Tuning Machines have been around over 200 years in good working order. I saw a Ceruti Bass recently with it's original Gears (c.1800 or earlier).. Never broke, never replaced!

4-string Basses were used in the Prague School almost from the beginning and 5s in the late 18th century. I think it was the 19th century where the 3-string was strong in Italy, France and the UK. We rarely see any Germanic type Basses made for domestic use made originally in 3-strings. I think 19th century USA was mixed as well between imports and Yankee made Basses.

Low C-Extensions replacing 5s in mainly USA but other places as well. Some players just play the Lows up and octave no matter what. 5s are in use sparsely in USA but very common as needed in Central Europe and fairly common in other parts of the world including Japan and Australia.

Now... If you are talking about Solo playing, YES, there is a whole bunch of new things brewing like those from Rabbath and others. My main topic is for standard BASS playing either in Jazz or in Orchestra.

One time a person came in with a nice old Germanic Bass and handed it to me to try right after putting the bent Endpin in. I couldn't even find a way to comfortably hold it much less play it.

Maybe it's the case of 'old dog, new trick' kinda thing..

[David Powell]

Well, I haven't done much experimenting with different types of endpins. I'm still trying to figure out where I want the thing let out to (solid steel pin currently). I'm at least down to about an inch of length between two detente positions and I go back and forth with that. My right hand likes one position and my left the other. I think if I always played arco, it would stay in one place and if I always played pizz it would be in the other. So maybe I should just get a custom pin made that splits the difference?

I do think KC strings reported some block problems with the Laborie style pin on a TB thread. As far as the separated attachment of the tail gut and pin, the first bass I saw this on was a very innovative bass that I thought was made by a maker named Hamm. But now I can find nothing on the web about that bass. I think I might have some photos on my old PC, but anyway the pin and tail gut were among a few other things done differently. The neck angle was adjustable. Does anyone remember that DB? It was kind of angular at the scroll, had unusual sort of art deco looking f's. I want to say the maker was Charles Hamm, but Google shows nothing. Anyway it is interesting to learn that this is not a new idea, seaparating the endpin hole from the tailgut stay.

The wooden pin idea sounds interesting to me, but when we get to a rubber foot, I kind of wonder if any differences are going to go beyond that piece of rubber. I use soft rubber shock mounts for microphones and these are very effective dampers of sound transmission. Practical experience respected, I don't see how the pin material could do much to increase transmission of the sound to the floor if there is a rubber tip on it. The most experienced band leader I work with isolates almost all of the amps and cabinets with soft rubber pads like those that one would find in a high foot traffic area. He claims that everything (cabinets and electronics racks) benefits from isolation. It is obvious why microphones need this, but perhaps other components benefit as well?

As far as flooring, I have noticed that carpet just kills sound in general, although I don't know about the casters vs. rubber feet phenomenon because I have just not tried a cabinet both ways.

[Ken Smith]

So Steel Rods, CF Rods and Wood Endpins will all have the same sound is the same rubber tip is used?

Maybe someone could record the frequency off the Rod between the socket and the Tip and see what the differences are sing the exact same Bass is anyone here can do that.

David, with your 2-height needs for Pizz and Bowing I would pull it out to the tallest size you would ever use sitting or standing, leave enough length to just clear the socket internally and cut off the rest of the excess Rod length. The Bass is heavy enough as it is..

Originally Posted by David Powell

I do think KC strings reported some block problems with the Laborie style pin on a TB thread. As far as the separated attachment of the tail gut and pin, the first bass I saw this on was a very innovative bass that I thought was made by a maker named Hamm. But now I can find nothing on the web about that bass. I think I might have some photos on my old PC, but anyway the pin and tail gut were among a few other things done differently. The neck angle was adjustable. Does anyone remember that DB? It was kind of angular at the scroll, had unusual sort of art deco looking f's. I want to say the maker was Charles Hamm, but Google shows nothing. Anyway it is interesting to learn that this is not a new idea, seaparating the endpin hole from the tailgut stay.

The wooden pin idea sounds interesting to me, but when we get to a rubber foot, I kind of wonder if any differences are going to go beyond that piece of rubber. I use soft rubber shock mounts for microphones and these are very effective dampers of sound transmission. Practical experience respected, I don't see how the pin material could do much to increase transmission of the sound to the floor if there is a rubber tip on it.

I saw that about the Laborie endpin on TB as well, but they didn't give any examples of it actually happening, just said that it was possible on cheaply made basses.

That luthier's name is James Hamm - he made the bass that Karr played for several years (although I understand not any more). His basses are very interesting.

As for the rubber on the floor issue, I have no idea why but I can definitely hear the difference between the carbon fiber end pin and the wooden one even though both have rubber balls on the end. I was shocked at the difference when I first heard it.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by David Powell

As far as the separated attachment of the tail gut and pin, the first bass I saw this on was a very innovative bass that I thought was made by a maker named Hamm. But now I can find nothing on the web about that bass. I think I might have some photos on my old PC, but anyway the pin and tail gut were among a few other things done differently.

Back around the 1960s, before they were taken over by a conglomerate, Scherl & Roth made basses with a separate knob that the tail gut attached to in addition to the standard adjustable endpin. I've had others come in my shop over the years, but I don't remember the names of the makers or brand names other than S&R.