To Cut, or Not to Cut? (TB Save)

[Ken Smith]

Member Comment (actually, it's from Arnold, lol); Real world: A bass must be playable to have value as an instrument. An unplayable bass is essentially worthless. Do what you must to make it a playable (and therefore valuable) bass. Most of the top-tier basses in the world today were cut down at one point, and their value is intact. Witness the ex-Homer Mensch Gofriller, which would have caused a bidding war in the $200,000+ range, had it not ended up with his favored student.

Yup, my point exactly. By the way, that Bass of Homer still went for close to the 200k mark even though it WAS his student. It was NOT given to him for free at all. Maybe you can say, he got the Bass less the commission had it been publically sold. Homers' Gagliano is for sale and it was Cut too as well. That is going for 200k. By the way, Biase IS the one that cut Homers' Gofriller. Paul has a similar near identical one at the shop un-cut for comparison. Even the Scrolls match not to mention the wood. On the Gagliano, it's cut all around upper and lower from what I understand. I don't know who cut the Gagliano or when but I figure if Paul can cut a Gofriller for Homer, then my Bass is just a walk in the park.

[Ken Smith]

Well, if you wish to preserve the bass, then you will want to leave as little indication as possible that you ever worked on it. If you cut it, then you become an obvious part of the history of it, and your work will be judged. I don't see one way as better than the other, just different approaches. To me, what matters more is the quality of work and end results.

The History IS the work that has been performed on the Bass throughout its life. I can already see 3 different crossbar patterns on the back. The Top has its original shape and no cracks in the center of the Breast, Sound Post or Bass Bar areas. This shows the makers work and wood choice was complementary to itself despite the usage of the Bass over the centuries. The Ribs have plenty of splits which shows that the Top was stronger when the Back shrunk each season and let the Ribs take the hit. The Bass has many many mars and scratches on the Back which shows it didn't always have a Case and may have been on top of a Carriage cross-town. The Bass was restored in USA around the 1840s but was reported to have been brought to the USA around 1908 by the previous user/owner. This means it was probably played by a Musician on the Great Ships from Europe to USA as it was here before and maybe brought back after it was repaired. The Scroll was 3-strings and then converted to 4-strings. The Neck has a Carpentry splice in the center. The back Button had a plate of wood and under it, 2 huge Screws into the neck showing signs that it had taken a hit or fall at sometime. This may explain the new White Bros. Scroll of Boston, 1840. The Neck Splice may be from later damage. I have a black stained maple Tailpiece that was made for 3-string but 2 holes were drilled thru it later for 4-strings.

This Bass was originally a 3-string but the 4 Gears that were on the Bass when I got it date from Germany about 1800-1850 or so and were exactly like these but without the Plates;



These are just some of the parts of its past history. This Bass is no 'Virgin' by any means. Making it work in a respectful manner for todays playing is just another step in preserving the makers intentions. A playable workable Bass for a deserving player.

I want to point out one other thing here. I have bought 4 English Basses in the last 3 years. One is gone but I will still refer to it. Three of them have tight flamed Sycamore Backs and ribs of local English growth. Three of the Tops are medium-fine grained Spruce BUT one of them has grain I have never seen except in sections here and there. This Top has some special wood. Grain tighter than the naked eye can count the growth rings. The Bass also shows signs or trimming the bouts about 1/4 -1/2" all around as the Purfling on the Top runs off the Bass but is evident in the corners, c-bouts and upper and lower portions of the Bass. It looks as if the Bouts was more of a squarer shape originally and maybe trimmed when the highly figured ribs first shrunk OR the Top was made first and the Back wasn't wide enough so it was trimmed after it was Purfled and then assembled. A composite was once considered but the C-bouts line up perfectly and they are unusual as it is and the Varnish matches from Top to Back as well. So, the Mystery of this Bass is more than just the Maker or Origin.

[Ken Smith]

Ok, after all this chatter about if or how to do this Bass, I finally spoke with Biase who was out of town for these rounds and totally unaware of the public forum and polled opinion on this project.

A Block cut it will be. Some trim around the upper edges, a new Block lowered down slightly and the Bridge cheated about 1/2" or so. this should get me close to 42" and be able to reach the F# which is a goal in all set-ups.

Thanks to all that threw in their $.02 and more. Please feel free to continue on the topic if so desired. This thread remains open for this subject as long as TB stays around.

[Ken Smith]

I know this Thread stopped suddenly a few days after its start over a year ago but if anyone is interested, I have a slight update. The current Neck Block will remain in the Bass. Biase added a piece to the bottom of the Block to make it deeper in the the upper Bouts. This way, when he cuts the upper Block area, there will be a big enough Block to set the new Neck in.

He will cut about 1" off the Top of the Bass and leave the Block area wider around the Neck and trim the side platforms with Ebony. As you can see from these two pictures, when the Top area is cut, the platform area wont be all the wide.



As far as that raised plate goes on the Back Button, we have already made a new one as well as a matching plate to go across the bottom of the Back. A graft repair was done on the inside as the lower Block area of the Back was messed up. Both plates have a strip running down the center, with the plates book matched to match up with the Back as it has a half inlaid center strip as well.



So, as far as 'The Cut' goes, we have gone with option #3, the Block area only. Originally, we were thinking of cutting the Shoulders and re-shaping them with some slope added. Next, Biase mentioned we should only cut about 2" off the upper Ribs at the Corner Block, lower the upper Rib assembly to the Corner Blocks and then just trim the Top and Back to conform to the Ribs with just a slight lip. Only the Top is purfled so restoring the Purfling is not as much as would be if both plates were purfled. With the Block cut, mainly only the Tips of the Top and a small area below the current neck-set will be removed. The original Purfling will just end at the Block platform. Setting the New neck into the modified Block about an inch deep and with a lower heel will help get the String length reduced to 42" or less. The Shoulders although broad (22" upper bout width), they do have a gentle slope with only 5 3/4" Rib depth at the Neck. After the Block-cut it will be closer to 6 or 6 1/2 wide, still fairly narrow and accessible.



I refer to 'we' only because I have selected some matching wood for the plates, cut them and sent them to Biase. I have also worked closely with him for over 3 years on all the planning of this restoration. However, he is the actual Restorer and not me. It's not business, it's just personal.

[Ken Smith]

If you follow the Link to the original TB Thread you will see that I kept this slightly shorter with a few quotes and answers. I cut over 2 pages off of the TB Cut Thread but gave you all the basic 'Meat' of the Topic.

Another thing I did was to leave out the names of the other TB Members posting in response that I quoted just in case they don't want to be mentioned here. I can't imagine why they wouldn't but just to be on the safe side. Being that this is the internet, I am not sure of the 'copyright' laws either. I know what I write is mine so that's no problem copying over my Text. I cut out quite a bit of back and forth from one particular Dealer because it looked a bit to commercial on his part how he posted. I did mention the Names of two people quoted mainly because I know them and they post here regularly.

The bottom line here on the 'Cut' topic was that on a phone conversation I had with Biase in the Spring it looked as if he didn't need to Cut the Block area as he explained to me how he could avoid it with the Neck-Set, Bridge 'Cheat' and Overstand. Around that time I had sent him pictures of how the Block area was to be Cut to achieve the String length along with the other changes that were being made. When I went there in July I saw that he DID actually Cut the Inch off that I had drawn up and even saved the Pieces. One side on the Rib touching the Block had some serious repairs to it. By cutting that inch away, the prior damage in that area was half gone. Again, he did save the two pieces in case I change my mind but the Bass actually looks better now in the Block area than it did before. I am talking with vision here as it was not yet all done up with the Neck in and the Ebony shoulder caps on the Block. When it IS finally done, it will be a beautiful and subtle modification. The String length with the Bridge 'Cheat' will be under 42". That is what I call a success story.

When the Restoration is all done, I will update the Webpage for this Bass with its modifications along with a Link to the 'before' Page and Pics.

[Ken Smith]

For those of you still with some confusion about what a Block-Cut actually is, let me try and explain this here with no other topics in this post.

The Neck must be set deeper into the Block, so in order to do that another piece of wood was 'added' to the existing Neck Block so the Block would have more depth in which to set the Neck deeper down into Block. Also, the current Block was cut with a 'dove-tail' instead of a standard 'mortise' joint (partial pic shown). With a dovetail, the Neck sits ON the top of the Block and Not IN the Block as it should. The Block in this Bass is not the Original as we have found a small 'left over' Tab still glued to the upper Back from an older Blockless Neck. The English made all grades and styles of String instruments from the simplest construction to the most elaborate as they copied makers from the Tirol and German Schools as well as the great Italians like Amati, Maggini and later Strad and Guarnieri.

Ok, so have a look at this Pic below and I will explain. Sorry for the full Scale Bass as we need only to look at the Block area.



What was did here was to Cut about 1" (one inch) off of the Ribs measuring from where the Ribs meet the Top up at the Block and measuring 1" downwards. The width of the Rib/Block piece Cut looks more than 1" because it is gradually curving away from the Neck and not straight down.

This will look visually like it has a 'platform' around the Neck Heel rather than the Ribs curving up to and meeting the Neck directly like it does now similar to the pictures posted below;



The Block that was originally a dovetail has been converted to a Mortise joint similar to the partial Block pic shown below from my Gilkes (look to the far right of the pic).



Now, looking at the Block of the Gilkes above imagine the bottom of it being squared off which was more like the Mystery Bass than the rounded bottom and edges of the Gilkes. Another piece of similar wood was added and glued to the bottom of the squared off Block in order to allow for both the Mortise to be cut into the already lowered-Cut dovetail block and also to deepen the Neck-set to help with the string length alteration.

To compensate for the 'stop-note' of about a D-Neck at the Heel, the Bridge will be moved up one inch as well. The combined Block-Cut and Bridge-cheat shortens the String length by 2" (two inches). The new Neck Graft along with the slightly deeper Neck-set gives us a tad more deduction as well on the length.

Being that the Neck-stand is also moved out quite a bit along with the wide (22") but slightly sloped Shoulders and the extreme (8 1/2"-5 3/4") but gradual Back Bend towards the Neck makes this 'biggie' one easy playing monster to be..

I hope this single synopsis helps to put this whole 'Cut' subject in a better light.

[Craig Regan]

Ken, You mentioned a neck graft in the above post. Could you explain how was it done? and how it changed the bass?