What do you want in a bass ?

[Matthew Heintz]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

With all of these various demands, what are you expecting to spend on a Bass new or old and what are you willing to spend if you are aware that your wishes are beyond your means?

Good question/point. Since Martin asked in connection with his new build, presumably we're talking about new basses here. My hypothetical price range (not that I'm shopping): $17.5k to $24k. That's a broad range, but, not unreasonable, and, for a plain jane bass, I believe that it would include new basses from most luthiers in the US and Canada, while excluding many across the pond due to the Euro/dollar conversion. Other than the detachable neck, the bass that I described above is plain jane and would, I expect, be on the lower to mid end of the spectrum (flatback gamba with extension). Old basses are a whole different ballgame.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Personally, I cannot stand those angled endpins. I like my Basses with as few holes in them as possible. I plugged up one of those angled holes on a Bass that came in and gained about 20% more noticeable volume and depth in tone. I tested this 'dry' before gluing the 'custom fit' Plug in the Bass.

Then the KC tilt block or equivalent could be an option. No drilling. Relatively cheap and easy to add and remove. Of course, many notable players feel that the Laborie improves the sound of the bass. Personally, I didn't want to drill. I didn't notice a change one way or the other that I could attribute to the KC tilt block, but I changed a number of other variables, so I really can't determine. The bass did sound better with the tilt block than with the eggpin. In terms of playability, the angled pin made a world of difference for me, but, of course, it's not for everyone. Since Martin asked what I'd like to see, there you have it. You might find that a bass that was designed for the Laborie (rather than a bass later drilled for one by a luthier who may or may not have experience with the process) would have better results.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Also good to note besides just your wishes is what you will be doing with this Bass as well as what type/level player you are currently. Sometimes, a maker can suggest things you are not aware of as well as exclude a few things that may not be in your best personal interest.

Me = amateur, classical, been playing for 19 years. Other than the detachable neck, the bass that I described above is very close to my primary bass. The detachable neck would have saved me a few thousand dollars and a great deal of hassle, and for a player that is on the audition circuit or traveling to gigs, it could make the difference between affording to go or staying at home; this I know from my limited experience with traveling (between 5 cities over the last 15 years). Some luthiers obviously feel that the detachable neck compromises the bass, but a number of well respected luthiers (e.g., Ross, Lamarre, Hamm, Radelet, Auray, Charton) offer the option. A debate for another day. Radelet and Ross are in the above stated price range; I don't know about the others, but probably not.

[Ken McKay]

It shouldn't add much of anything to the price of a bench made DB. Nor will the beefier tailblock. Handmade basses are way underpriced for the time it takes to design and make a custom one. They cost about as much as bench made Cello and even some violins are 25 - 30K.

Ken, I gotta wonder about that 20% change in volume and depth of sound with one little hole plugged at the tailblock area. As far as pure acoustics, pschychoacoustics of bowed stringed instruments it should not make that much difference. OTOH I am sure you don't speak lightly about stuff like that.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

It shouldn't add much of anything to the price of a bench made DB. Nor will the beefier tailblock. Handmade basses are way underpriced for the time it takes to design and make a custom one. They cost about as much as bench made Cello and even some violins are 25 - 30K.

Ken, I gotta wonder about that 20% change in volume and depth of sound with one little hole plugged at the tailblock area. As far as pure acoustics, pschychoacoustics of bowed stringed instruments it should not make that much difference. OTOH I am sure you don't speak lightly about stuff like that.

Well, for what ever reason I was able to feel the air shotting down out of this hole when I put my foot under the bass while playing it unplugged, the hole that is. It felt like it was actually down firing out of the hole, the sound that is. I can't say I measured the volume and tone at 20% but it was a noticeable and clear difference when plugged.

Do you believe that F-hole size matters much as far as volume and tone of a given bass? I haven't seen this discussed all that much around here or anywhere else. For the record, I do!

[Ken McKay]

No I haven't noticed any correlation of F hole size to either volume or depth of sound. This is easy to test if you cover a portion of the soundhole, it either changes or not.

From what I have seen and heard, the things that do seem to matter are f-hole placement. This might be from their effect on the top plate resonances. Of course this is hard to prove. I am thinking that wider spacing effects the depth because of the flexibility of the plate goes up across the grain when spaced wider apart. This would effect depth of sound the most I think if the f holes are wider spaced. But the air inside needs to be able to reinforce the plate movement or it is wasted movement. So air volume and plate resonance needs to match. More of this can be heard as more fundamental to the tone.

Holes in the side of the upper bout don't seem to effect depth or volume much. I have played Arnold's ergo and I heard him say this also.

A hole in a place of maximum rigidity of the plates (tailblock) might theoretically highly effected sound. I have read that air pressure is highest there. Since the air pressure reinforces the plate vibration of both the top and back, a loss of pressure could decrease volume or depth.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

My non-scientific belief is that overly large f-holes are not good for tone. I will try to explain, based on a lengthy conversation I had about a decade ago with Tom Martin. We think that when the f-holes of a bass are really big, the sound jumps out of the bass quickly, creating the illusion of power. But when the f-holes are sized right, the sound has more time to roll around inside the corpus and it gets seasoned. Then the tone is more complex and woody, but the bass may not sound quite as loud in the immediate surrounding area. However, it will spread out into the hall and the audience will get more bass sound. Now this begs the question, "what is the right size?". My answer is, I know it when I see it. I think many of the Italian and English masters had it right, i.e., Panormo, the Testores, Ruggieri, etc. Contrarily, to my eye many of the Germans, Viennese, and some of the Americans make/made their f-holes overly large and open. And I have also had experience where very small f-holes seem to be holding back the power of a bass. I had the experience of enlarging them on a fine bass once, and I thought the instrument's power improved. Then again, other modifications were made, so I can't be sure.

[kurt muroki]

I always go for sound and volume before all else especially in chamber music where I am all alone and do not need to blend and my primary objective.

[Ken McKay]

Italians used proprotional geometry to place the f holes, Might that have a lot to do with them looking and sounding right?

Structuraly there is a lot going on in this area. The flexiblility of the plate in this area is highly effected by the placement of the f holes and their spacing, length, width of wings, slope and area. Arching, thickness and edge scoop also highly effect the structure of the top plate in this area. The bridge sits right in the middle and transmits the string movement directly to the top, right in the middle of the f holes. Theres a lot going on here!

Viols had C holes with a similar area as f holes. But the C holes covered much less horizontal grain so the plate was stiffer in that area. F holes evolved to create the more violin like sound that is now favored in larger concert halls.

So that is why I think f holes effect the sound a lot but not by air movement. The air pumping out of the box through the f holes creates a fullness to the sound. And I have noticed even cheap plywood basses have that whoomph, air sound. But the complex tone from a good bass comes from resonating of the bass body.

I just don't think the f hole size effects tone much by itself, unless they are too small or large. I am going to do some tests later this week.
edit: By allowing or not allowing air to pump, I should have said.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Do you believe that F-hole size matters much as far as volume and tone of a given bass? I haven't seen this discussed all that much around here or anywhere else. For the record, I do!

So ... can you elaborate on exactly what you believe matters?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

So ... can you elaborate on exactly what you believe matters?

Well, it is impossible to compare anything unless the exact same Bass is altered. I recently had one of my Basses slightly altered as Arnold mentioned and there was a slight noticeable difference. The Bass also got a Neck graft with a longer neck, string length 1" longer, the neck block converted from a dovetail to a mortise with a tighter fit from neck to block, new Fingerboard, the Back re-repaired, some other internal work tightened up and a partial center back Brace.

So, what exactly made the bass sound better? Hard to tell..

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Well, it is impossible to compare anything unless the exact same Bass is altered. I recently had one of my Basses slightly altered as Arnold mentioned and there was a slight noticeable difference. The Bass also got a Neck graft with a longer neck, string length 1" longer, the neck block converted from a dovetail to a mortise with a tighter fit from neck to block, new Fingerboard, the Back re-repaired, some other internal work tightened up and a partial center back Brace.

Oh. As you put on the record that you did think that F hole size mattered, I thought you might have some empirical evidence or observation of your own from the many fine basses you own, that you might be able to share. But what you're saying is that from your experience you can't actually say for sure that altering the F hole size matters much at all?

I agree with your last point that there are just too many variables in DB luthiery to be able to make any reliable rule of thumb.

For the record, *I* don't know what the effect of changing F hole size does, as a generalization. Nor F hole placement, angle, edge shape, length, area etc. It would be nice to have a formula to work with, but I don't think there's going to be one. My own hunch is that it is not so much the size or shape of the F holes that matters for sound, so much as the size and shape of the space left between them. So it's the INSIDE edge of the FFs that is most important; the outside edge has a marginal effect. But I don't have any evidence to back that up. Arnold's observations are valuable but I don't think anyone would care to predict the outcome on a bass's sound based on those alone.

[Ken Smith]

The air does come out of the holes as if it's the 'sound window'. The size of the window can be too small or to big to handle the air pressure or lack of it. What is better or worse, who knows? Softer woods might have different formulas than harder woods, etc. Placement of the Fs is another issue as far as the bass itself goes. Too exact basses with different wood might differ as well.

I am a firm believer that the wood matters. A LOT.

Actually, everything matters. If there was a formula, there wouldn't be as many models around as there are now.

I know a good bass when I hear it or play it. I speculate quite a bit with basses that are barely playable or totally unplayable and usually come out ok after restoration. It's the 'package' and not just one factor that makes or breaks a bass design wise.