Where are they??

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jeff Campbell

You've got me thinking...your original intention of this thread was to find the big old German that folks like Prescott or JB Allen used as a model type for their Yankee instruments. In looking at your Mittenwald bass, the size ratio between the smaller upper bouts and the oversized lower ones looks quite a bit like those used by Prescott. Do you see any similarities or am I way off base here. How does this bass sound? Big and thunderous? Sweet? Clear?
Deep? A couple of things are confusing: the angle break in the back and the golden-ish varnish are not typical of the other Mittenwald basses on this thread. How did you come to decide it was from Mittenwald? Also, in your last response, you cited the bass I posted as perhaps H&H. What is H&H. Did you mean Neuner and Hornsteiner (N&H), or is this a different firm/maker?

I have more photos of yet another bass I've come across which will follow in a day or two.

Oops.. that was a typo. N&H. They letters are just above one another and was typing too fast, for me that is.. lol

On my Bass, the Scroll is NOT original to that bass. I see it as a later Markneukirchen style end of 19th, early 20th century, gears and all.

The bass itself is red over gold. It came in as a Mittenwald and that's what I think it is. Not necessarily a typical factory model but something more custom. Almost like a copy of a Tarr or Northern English bass.

This to me is nothing at all like a Prescott in its pattern at least not to my eye and nothing like the Yankee sound either. Sounds like good German. Punchy notes with short decay, almost no after ringing inside the bass and even sounding all over. If anything, I would reiterate an English copy in its overall style. The Basses with angle breaks from East Germany thru Prague and even Vienna are diffefent in many ways. The Northerm English copied in part the Germans and here it looks like that flavor. I have also seen another Birdseye maple Mittenwald bass not long ago but that one was much bigger and more typical German all around but with the upper angle break as well. I have heard that they were made both ways in Germany, with and without that angle.

Sound wise I have to say it's still coming. The Bass hasn't seen a Bow in years and it also needs some set-up work and a bit of gluing. Jeff Bollbach will get this when I'm done with my Jobs in mid Summer and make an Extension for it as well. I have the Eurosonics on it right now as that was the only regular 4-string set I had that was 'new' but is not my choice for this bass. It was just something to hear it with. I have a concert Saturday and two jazz tunes as well with a Symphony and I got the jazz part. Last week at the first full rehearsal the bass sounded great thru the amp as well as in the section with the bow. For sound and tone I would say medium power in the mids, sweet on top and shaking the floor a bit on the bottom. It needs a good endpin as well which I know will help the sound. Also, the soundpost felt a bit on the short side and I placed it a bit closer to the F-hole than I normally would to make it fit. I am sure it will sound much better after Jeff is done with it. Regardless, I like the bass as it is and enjoy playing it every chance I get. The bass 'feels' very old and mature as well. It just needs some TLC and some playing. This I can guarantee it will get!

[Jeff Campbell]

Here's yet another bass that may fit into the 'big bass' category. The shape is typical, the golden color reminds me of a Seitz bass I posted earlier (on page 1 of this thread). The machines on this bass are just like the one's on my big bass (and if you look close on the photo of the Seitz bass, it has the same machines as well).

I do agree that your Mittenwald bass is reminiscent of Tarr bass. In terms of my comment about your bass when compared to Yankee basses, I was only referring to the ratio between large lower bouts and the relatively smaller upper bouts I've seen on some Prescott basses.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jeff Campbell

I do agree that your Mittenwald bass is reminiscent of Tarr bass. In terms of my comment about your bass when compared to Yankee basses, I was only referring to the ratio between large lower bouts and the relatively smaller upper bouts I've seen on some Prescott basses.

The upper bouts of Prescott Basses are usually wide and long. Some of them were cut down as mine surely was, upper and middle. It must have been way too big because after the Cut, it was still a 4/4 bass. Maybe it was a 5/4 before?

Then I looked at Eugene Wrights bass that looks all original and came to the conclusion that his upper bouts were very similar to my 'cut' upper bouts. Prescott must have changed the 4/4 model Busetto and Gamba basses to have smaller upper's for the players buying them. That I think is 'American' and not German as it was done to make it playable and not a copy. The only Copy part is copying his own cutting down which we can consider a learning curve.

Show me a single Prescott that looks like the proportions of my German bass (I think it's German) and I will reverse my opinion.

It is also written somewhere that Prescott copied an old English Viol for his Scroll idea and length. That is a huge pegbox for what only had 3 strings originally!

More please...

[Jeff Campbell]

Thanks Ken,

I am not an expert and I defer to your experience. I've seen a few Prescotts only so my vantage point is limited. Thanks for keeping me honest. I appreciate this forum where so much can be learned.

[Eric Rene Roy]

Originally Posted by Jeff Campbell

Here's yet another bass that may fit into the 'big bass' category. The shape is typical, the golden color reminds me of a Seitz bass I posted earlier (on page 1 of this thread). The machines on this bass are just like the one's on my big bass (and if you look close on the photo of the Seitz bass, it has the same machines as well).

I do agree that your Mittenwald bass is reminiscent of Tarr bass. In terms of my comment about your bass when compared to Yankee basses, I was only referring to the ratio between large lower bouts and the relatively smaller upper bouts I've seen on some Prescott basses.

Cool bass Jeff...I have it's little sister here!

Ken, these brass plates are very unique (and original to the bass...so useful in identification)...and seeing as Jeff has two pictured, I have one, you have seen one...it's a shame we can't put a finger on who made these!

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Eric Rene Roy

Cool bass Jeff...I have it's little sister here!

Ken, these brass plates are very unique (and original to the bass...so useful in identification)...and seeing as Jeff has two pictured, I have one, you have seen one...it's a shame we can't put a finger on who made these!

I have seen versions of those on some English Basses and some German as well from Mittenwald. I am sure they were for sale just like the Baker gears were as well as the Mirecourt gears sold to 'Hawkes & Son' that they put on all of their German imports.

Eric, can you show the whole bass maybe and not just little pieces of it?

Also, that bass you have called a Gemunder on your site now is a German bass and possibly Mittenwald. Most of the Gemunder basses if not all of them from NY were German Imports. I have a copy of their old catalog page from 1892 in which is titled "Imported German Basses". The brothers who started in Mass. (senior) were out of the making by then and the sons/cousins of both parents running the firm and importing. Of course that would put that bass after 1892 when they first started the firm. I remember this bass when Gary first emailed me the pics of it.

On the brass plates, any maker or shop could have fitted them. I have seen old basses with these gears and I think most of them were on plates. Some looked original and some not as far as the plates under the gears go.

[Ken Smith]

I picked up my old Mittenwalder about a month ago from Jeff Bollbach with its new chromatic C-Extension. He also tightened up a few other things around the bass and the sound is quite impressive. The E string shakes the floor and it's not a huge bass, just a large 3/4 or small 7/8. I think the Birdseye maple back and ribs has something to do with the low end being so deep and powerful.

As soon as my son Mike can get into the shop and take some new pics I will be able to show the beautiful C-Extension he just made for it.

The shoulders and back design are quite a comfortable combination to get around as well.

I can only imagine now why we don't see more of these basses over here in America. The Europeans are holding on to them! Why? Because they work!!

[Ken Smith]

Ok, follow me here on this. I looked thru the ranks of the known 19th century makers of Mittenwald to identify the possible maker/shop of my Bass. Looking at dates alone, the mostly likely person was Ludwig Neuner or his firm that he took over in 1867, Neuner-Hornsteiner. These were my thoughts about a year ago.

There is little doubt that this is a Mittenwald production but the design is quite different from the average domestic product from this area.

I recently had my Georges Mougenot Bass restored and while comparing the FFs of both Basses side by side I noticed they were almost exactly the same. The Mittenwald being slightly longer but the all the curves as well as the eyes and tabs looked to be from the same pattern. Mougenot having worked with N.F. Vuillaume had access to the Vuillaume patterns as N.F. worked with and made Basses for his brother J.B. Vuillaume before moving to Brussels. This explains the Vuillaume FFs on the Mougenot. Ludwig Neuner, although trained by his father originally, had gone to Paris and worked for 6-7 years with Vuillaume. He also traveled to London briefly as well. This Bass has the Vuillaume FFs and an English Gamba style outline and Back bend. It is for these reasons that I make this attribution, as Ludwig Neuner is the only German of that period that worked and traveled to both France and England. The Bass is totally a Mittenwald production but shows also the Vuillaume FFs with the English Gamba pattern which is a modified German model so it's a full circle. The English copied the Germans and then the Germans copied the English with some French added which was taken from the Italians to begin with!

Reading more on Ludwig Neuner is also mention of having worked briefly in Vienna with the celebrated maker Gabriel Lembock. Ludwig Streicher played a Bass by Lembock. Vieneese Basses are well known for their friendly sloped shoulders over modest width bouts, unlike the slender Pear shaped Basses made in France and Germany of the late 19th century but rather fairly full dimensioned Basses with politely sloped shoulders.

So, putting the period of the Bass at about 1860 or so, Mittenwald in make, English style Back bend and lower Bout width, Vienna style upper Bout slope and Vuillaume pattern Strad model FFs, who is the most likely suspect? ... Ludwig Neuner!

"Attributed to" is an opinion rather than a proven fact, but I did my research and these are the results.

[Ken Smith]

I just read this on line so I thought it would be good to share. His name is quite famous but where he came from and what he did prior to earn his reputation is different depending on the author. This paragraph is on line at ricercare.com but is copied from the Henley book and is the most comprehensive information I have seen to date on him. Reading also from Jalovec makes the information on Neuner unanimous.

"NEUNER, LUDWIG
Most brilliant representative of the family. Born at Mittenwald, 1840. Trained in the workshop of his father Johann; worked with Andreas Engleder at Munich, also studied ’cello playing with Werner at the Conservatorium. Proceeded to Vienna where he was assistant to Gabriel Lembock; then spent six years under the guidance of J. B. Vuillaume at Paris; also continued his ’cello studies by taking lessons from Franchomme. The cleverness of his subsequent work must be entirely attributable to the impressions gathered from the masterpieces continually passing through the hands of the eminent Frenchman. Worked a few months in London; opened an establishment at Berlin, 1867; worked there with two workmen until 1883. Death of brother and father necessitated his return to Mittenwald, where he took over the control of “Neuner and Hornsteiner”. Had branch premises and workmen at Berlin and Innsbruck. Appointed maker to the Bavarian Royal Family. Recipient of various medals at Exhibitions throughout the world. Died 1897, after organising the firm in such a manner that 200 men were daily employed in coping with large orders from every country. An accomplished man, cultured conversationalist, etc. who could proudly boast of any acquaintance with Kaiser Wilhelm, Prince Leopold, and many of the celebrated virtuosi and composers of his country. Spent the last few years of life endeavouring to solve the secret of the varnish of the old Cremona masters. The firm produced all grades of stringed instruments from ten shillings upwards. “Solo Violins” and “Solo ’Cellos” were the personal work of Ludwig. Superior workmanship at the relatively small price of £15. Perfect modelling and replicating of the Messe Strad, or the Paganini Guarnerius, Amati, and Maggini. Finely wooded, richly varnished, and of splendid tone. Produced interesting copies of the Servais and Lübeck Strad ’cellos. Also made bows for artists."

The Bass I have just barely qualifies on the "Where are They?" in date as my estimate of c.1860 is the minimum age I was looking for, just hitting 150 years old now. On some instances the Bass looks over 200 years old but that's mainly because of the hard life it's had from constant use as well as the irregular Birdseye Maple wood used for the Back and Ribs. The Top is quite healthy for its age though. The Bass is very comfortable to play and is currenty the Bass I take out most since it's the closest in feel to my former Martini, just not quite the sound as this one is very 'German' sounding but 'old' German.