Starting a DB Project

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I have several restoration photos on my website of some famous instruments in restoration. Not a blow by blow but a gook look inside some very expensive basses, $50-$150k grade.

Matthew's work looks very nice but the more you see, the more you learn from. These two links here are master grade basses restored by one of the best that does work for all of the major New York Orchestras and 100k basses are common in this shop daily.

One, and Two.

I have 100s of restoration photos in my files from other master grade basses of mine and other basses worked on as well but I generally keep them private as they would scare most players. Like seeing a body opened up and then a year later the guy jogging. Once when having a root c**** and fitting at the dentist I had to take a bathroom break as this was going for hours. The dentist said "DON'T look in the Mirror!!" After washing my hands I looked up.. .. Now I knew why he said that..

Post restoration photos are mush prettier to look at unless your are an experienced Emergency room attendee..

Thank you Ken, So mine have to look like those after I done with it ?

PS I have a good Idea of what to do by now, I am planning on practicing the procedure before I get to that bass

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ruben E garcia

Thank you Ken, So mine have to look like those after I done with it ?

PS I have a good Idea of what to do by now, I am planning on practicing the procedure before I get to that bass

If you can make your work as good and neat as that, you are doing the best possible. Sloppy work hurts the value and may need to be re-done as well, sooner than later.

[Ruben E garcia]

So I didnt have super long clamps that can reach deep into the top, so
I used Rare earth magnets.... I did work perfectly



All the cleats, square shape at 45% Grain angle




Chisel down (super sharp chisels ), Scraped and Sanded....



Final Result... They look good to me... I dont know about you guys









Couple notes....
I spoke to one of the local luthiers and he said that the old crack by the sound post looks sound... he recommended to ad a cleat in the north section of the crack and not to do a inlay patch... at least for now....
as for the lost of wood on the edges he suggest that an easy way to fix it is to use Wood epoxy.... I dont know anything about wood epoxy, sound scare sense ones the epoxy sets, I dont think I will be able to get it out in the case of a mistake.... could I use Hide glue for it, hummm...... i dont know if Hide G will build up or if it may react when I glue the top back????? ... it need to study the case in deep

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ruben E garcia

So I didnt have super long clamps that can reach deep into the top, so
I used Rare earth magnets.... I did work perfectly



All the cleats, square shape at 45% Grain angle




Chisel down (super sharp chisels ), Scraped and Sanded....



Final Result... They look good to me... I dont know about you guys









Couple notes....
I spoke to one of the local luthiers and he said that the old crack by the sound post looks sound... he recommended to ad a cleat in the north section of the crack and not to do a inlay patch... at least for now....
as for the lost of wood on the edges he suggest that an easy way to fix it is to use Wood epoxy.... I dont know anything about wood epoxy, sound scare sense ones the epoxy sets, I dont think I will be able to get it out in the case of a mistake.... could I use Hide glue for it, hummm...... i dont know if Hide G will build up or if it may react when I glue the top back????? ... it need to study the case in deep

Step AWAY from that Luthier before he teaches you how to Ruin this bass.

It needs a sound post patch and the edges at least repaired with wood if not a full around half edging. I don't know who this guy is but it sounds like he can kill a good bass easily with his ideas..

NEVER Epoxy.

Never open up a bass and do half the work to 'see' it it holds. Do the proper sound post patch as it does need it.

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Step AWAY from that Luthier before he teaches you how to Ruin this bass.

It needs a sound post patch and the edges at least repaired with wood if not a full around half edging. I don't know who this guy is but it sounds like he can kill a good bass easily with his ideas..

NEVER Epoxy.

Never open up a bass and do half the work to 'see' it it holds. Do the proper sound post patch as it does need it.

Ok Ken I see... I undestand....
1) No epoxy... I wasnt really sure about that at all... but I wanted some feedback from you...
2) Now It needs a sound post patch... I will do it, I will take your advise and do one... now so I get the whole point of your comment... when I face with an sound post crack.. it needs a patch even is the crack is not open... so I think the guy who performed the last repair... that it looks very good by the way... should have done a sound post patch before closing this bass? may the the customer didnt want to pay for that repair.. I being told that is $1000 for a patch... Jesus that a little too much for that
I can see why someone would say no to that ....
well like a said that's for your advise sound post patch is....

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by wayne holmes

Hi Ruben, I applaud your efforts. Ken makes some very good points.

I often think of my bass fishing mentor who said to me "if you want to become good at the sport of bass-fishing and really enjoy it, then you have to get the right equipment"

One thing that I have learned listening to Ken, Arnold, and all those who have been successful in luthiery is that you have to have the right tools.

As I say, I commend you for your efforts. I have not been doing luthiery work all that many years, but I am probably one of the oldest OFs on this forum and know aspiration and passion when I see it. I want to encourage you to get the tools that you need that will help you do the work that will better match your desire to do good work.

As creative as the magnets are, they have not done the job, IMO. You can see in the first pictures that the cleats don't fit the surface of the bass top as they should.

I recommend that you stop everything, remove the cleats, get the right clamps and start all over. And, I recommend, as I did once before, that you seek help before you attempt anything. When you tell us what you are going to do, then we can tell you what tools you will need and will tell you how to do it. You have also received books that show you how to do repairs and the tools needed.

I have to be perfectly honest with you Ruben. You have, at your request, the help that you need. However, if there is one common error in your approach to luthiery that has once again surfaced, you are not paying enough attention to the guidance given you.

Yes, given what you have used to accomplish the cleating, they do look sorta good, but you can do better work and cleaner work. So, stop everything, get the right tools and step by step instruction and do it right- you'll be glad that you did.

The clamps that you need are expensive, but you can make some for just a few dollars.

Before you install the soundpost patch, it will be important that you get all the cracks repaired correctly. Also, if you plan to replace the bassbar, the top needs to be in good shape first to include a proper reshaping in most cases.

Ruben, what you are attempting to do here is work on an instrument that is usually done by an experienced bass luthier.
This is not to say that you can't do it, but an experienced bass luthier is going to have the tools and equipment before he/she will attempt this kind of work. Many of us have had to learn this the hard way. The hard way is what you are doing now and this is the reason I am asking you to stop everything, get the right tools and equipment and begin again.

An example for what I am trying to say- Why is it that good bass luthiers can repair a crack to where you can't see it? They get the result because they have the right tools and equipment. They, also, have listened to their mentor's instructions on how to do the repair correctly.

Ruben, Hope this helps. Good luck.

wayne


wholmesbassviol@yahoo.com
www.holmesbassviol.com

Thank you Wayne I'll look into it...

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Consider also that lining up straight-edged cleats along a grain line can create a new fault line, resulting in a crack the next time the instrument is under excessive stress. Most current luthiers use diamond-shaped cleats because there is less strength at the grain line. Also, I believe yours are too far apart. Good on you for taking the criticism with an open mind and heart.

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

Consider also that lining up straight-edged cleats along a grain line can create a new fault line, resulting in a crack the next time the instrument is under excessive stress. Most current luthiers use diamond-shaped cleats because there is less strength at the grain line. Also, I believe yours are too far apart. Good on you for taking the criticism with an open mind and heart.

I have no idea that This particular type a cleats can cause later on some problems.... I am using Chuck book and he present few options and I just when for this one, that it happens to be his style... my cleats are spacing about tree inches apart but there is one 3 and 3/4, he also said that Bill merchant think that 2" and even 3" spacing is over kill. that cleats should be 4 to 6 inches apart.... now if I may ask you. what would be the optimum space between cleats.... lets say that I do Diamond cleats of 5/8" x 1"...

Thank for looking out after me... its hard but it need to be done the right way... and its a good experience... I just need to take a deep breath and take off all my beautiful cleats

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by wayne holmes

Hi Ruben, I applaud your efforts. Ken makes some very good points.

I often think of my bass fishing mentor who said to me "if you want to become good at the sport of bass-fishing and really enjoy it, then you have to get the right equipment"

One thing that I have learned listening to Ken, Arnold, and all those who have been successful in luthiery is that you have to have the right tools.

As I say, I commend you for your efforts. I have not been doing luthiery work all that many years, but I am probably one of the oldest OFs on this forum and know aspiration and passion when I see it. I want to encourage you to get the tools that you need that will help you do the work that will better match your desire to do good work.

As creative as the magnets are, they have not done the job, IMO. You can see in the first pictures that the cleats don't fit the surface of the bass top as they should.

I recommend that you stop everything, remove the cleats, get the right clamps and start all over. And, I recommend, as I did once before, that you seek help before you attempt anything. When you tell us what you are going to do, then we can tell you what tools you will need and will tell you how to do it. You have also received books that show you how to do repairs and the tools needed.

I have to be perfectly honest with you Ruben. You have, at your request, the help that you need. However, if there is one common error in your approach to luthiery that has once again surfaced, you are not paying enough attention to the guidance given you.

Yes, given what you have used to accomplish the cleating, they do look sorta good, but you can do better work and cleaner work. So, stop everything, get the right tools and step by step instruction and do it right- you'll be glad that you did.

The clamps that you need are expensive, but you can make some for just a few dollars.

Before you install the soundpost patch, it will be important that you get all the cracks repaired correctly. Also, if you plan to replace the bassbar, the top needs to be in good shape first to include a proper reshaping in most cases.

Ruben, what you are attempting to do here is work on an instrument that is usually done by an experienced bass luthier.
This is not to say that you can't do it, but an experienced bass luthier is going to have the tools and equipment before he/she will attempt this kind of work. Many of us have had to learn this the hard way. The hard way is what you are doing now and this is the reason I am asking you to stop everything, get the right tools and equipment and begin again.

An example for what I am trying to say- Why is it that good bass luthiers can repair a crack to where you can't see it? They get the result because they have the right tools and equipment. They, also, have listened to their mentor's instructions on how to do the repair correctly.

Ruben, Hope this helps. Good luck.

wayne


wholmesbassviol@yahoo.com
www.holmesbassviol.com

are u saying this types of clamps:



http://www.stringrepair.com/images/d...During_110.JPG

http://www.stringrepair.com/images/db3/ff6.JPG

[Thomas Erickson]

Lipstick?

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by wayne holmes

... make sure to get a good fit- use sandpaper under the cleat to get the cleat to match the top surface or you could lipstick or chulk it.

Lipstick? On bare wood? Wayne have you taken a little too much of your gran's corn syrup again?

Ruben you don't absolutely need long throated clamps for cleats if you are careful. Strong magnets and weights will do just as well.