Starting a DB Project

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Consider also that lining up straight-edged cleats along a grain line can create a new fault line, resulting in a crack the next time the instrument is under excessive stress. Most current luthiers use diamond-shaped cleats because there is less strength at the grain line. Also, I believe yours are too far apart. Good on you for taking the criticism with an open mind and heart.

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

Consider also that lining up straight-edged cleats along a grain line can create a new fault line, resulting in a crack the next time the instrument is under excessive stress. Most current luthiers use diamond-shaped cleats because there is less strength at the grain line. Also, I believe yours are too far apart. Good on you for taking the criticism with an open mind and heart.

I have no idea that This particular type a cleats can cause later on some problems.... I am using Chuck book and he present few options and I just when for this one, that it happens to be his style... my cleats are spacing about tree inches apart but there is one 3 and 3/4, he also said that Bill merchant think that 2" and even 3" spacing is over kill. that cleats should be 4 to 6 inches apart.... now if I may ask you. what would be the optimum space between cleats.... lets say that I do Diamond cleats of 5/8" x 1"...

Thank for looking out after me... its hard but it need to be done the right way... and its a good experience... I just need to take a deep breath and take off all my beautiful cleats

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ruben E garcia

I have no idea that This particular type a cleats can cause later on some problems.... I am using Chuck book and he present few options and I just when for this one, that it happens to be his style... my cleats are spacing about tree inches apart but there is one 3 and 3/4, he also said that Bill merchant think that 2" and even 3" spacing is over kill. that cleats should be 4 to 6 inches apart.... now if I may ask you. what would be the optimum space between cleats.... lets say that I do Diamond cleats of 5/8" x 1"...

Thank for looking out after me... its hard but it need to be done the right way... and its a good experience... I just need to take a deep breath and take off all my beautiful cleats

Chuck's book is a book, not THE Bible on repairs. I do not agree with everything he says in that book about repairs and I do not want any of my basses repaired in that way. Just because it's written doesn't make it true! Follow what Arnold tells you, and for very good reasons.

I have seen more basses inside and out than most people and have seen along with that many styles of repair and modification. Fit all patches and pieces 100% dry before gluing and clamping them in. For me, I would rip out everything you have done and start over fresh and do it correctly. Just don't make things worse by damaging the bass while removing your recent work. Like Wayne said, you need the tools in hand before you start. In my opinion, this was a huge undertaking as your first project in bass repair. Did I say Undertaking? Sounds similar to Undertaker, the one who buries the dead. Don't kill your bass!

When I buy basses or take them in trade, one of the things I ask is who did the previous repairs on the bass. Depending on who, it might cost double or triple to re-repair everything or I might just refuse to deal with a particular bass if I feel it's too far gone. I don't always see everything in advance but I sure try to. Do not become one of the repair people that makes it on the 'blacklist' of luthiers and basses worker on by to avoid. We have enough of them already. Most of them in my book. Like the guy who advised you to use wood epoxy? Geeze.. Talk to the young luthier Jed Kriegel who just spent a year picking junk glue like this out of an old bass which became one of the major parts of the restoration. It shouldn't have as that glue does not belong within a mile of any bass. Have fun..

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Chuck's book is a book, not THE Bible on repairs. I do not agree with everything he says in that book about repairs and I do not want any of my basses repaired in that way. Just because it's written doesn't make it true! Follow what Arnold tells you, and for very good reasons.

I have seen more basses inside and out than most people and have seen along with that many styles of repair and modification. Fit all patches and pieces 100% dry before gluing and clamping them in. For me, I would rip out everything you have done and start over fresh and do it correctly. Just don't make things worse by damaging the bass while removing your recent work. Like Wayne said, you need the tools in hand before you start. In my opinion, this was a huge undertaking as your first project in bass repair. Did I say Undertaking? Sounds similar to Undertaker, the one who buries the dead. Don't kill your bass!

When I buy basses or take them in trade, one of the things I ask is who did the previous repairs on the bass. Depending on who, it might cost double or triple to re-repair everything or I might just refuse to deal with a particular bass if I feel it's too far gone. I don't always see everything in advance but I sure try to. Do not become one of the repair people that makes it on the 'blacklist' of luthiers and basses worker on by to avoid. We have enough of them already. Most of them in my book. Like the guy who advised you to use wood epoxy? Geeze.. Talk to the young luthier Jed Kriegel who just spent a year picking junk glue like this out of an old bass which became one of the major parts of the restoration. It shouldn't have as that glue does not belong within a mile of any bass. Have fun..

I don't want to be on anybody's Blacklist... I but I dough that my bass end up in your shop ever

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Reasons why I believe diamond cleats are superior:

1) Grain crosses at a 30-40 degree angle, rather than 90 degrees, therefore less tendency to come loose from seasonal wood movement.

2) Much longer reinforcement per cleat; less cleats required.

3) Less stiffening, due to the shape and the way the edges are tapered.

4) Looks really pretty.

Of course square cleats have been used for centuries (as have diamonds), and they work ok. I just personally think diamonds are better, especially if the owner is female. (Private joke for Wayne)

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

Reasons why I believe diamond cleats are superior:

1) Grain crosses at a 30-40 degree angle, rather than 90 degrees, therefore less tendency to come loose from seasonal wood movement.

2) Much longer reinforcement per cleat; less cleats required.

3) Less stiffening, due to the shape and the way the edges are tapered.

4) Looks really pretty.

Of course square cleats have been used for centuries (as have diamonds), and they work ok. I just personally think diamonds are better, especially if the owner is female. (Private joke for Wayne)

Diamonds are Forever..!

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Nope. Try again...

[Adrian Levi]

is there a reason why linen pieces are not used solely for cleating . I've seen firsthand how a misplaced (in perfect line with the grain) and much too long piece of linen can split a top up due to its shrinkage after gluing,meaning that its not weak stuff ?

I have always wondered about the diamond shape verses the square shaped cleats. That is until I heard about a test that was done by some Austrian college students using two identical tops. On one top two rolls of diamond shaped cleats where glued and the other had larger and thinner square shaped cleats. Adding vibration to the two in equal amounts, the square cleated top continued to vibrate 4 to 6 seconds longer than the diamond one consistantly over several experiments. Fine wood dust was spread around the edges of each top and again vibration was applied to the tops. The thin square cleated ones produced a more even and smoother and a bit faster movement of the dust when ****yzed. I would give serious consideration to the thinner and larger square cleats- just thought I would share that for what it's worth.

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by Adrian Levi

is there a reason why linen pieces are not used solely for cleating . I've seen firsthand how a misplaced (in perfect line with the grain) and much too long piece of linen can split a top up due to its shrinkage after gluing,meaning that its not weak stuff ?

I have always wondered about the diamond shape verses the square shaped cleats. That is until I heard about a test that was done by some Austrian college students using two identical tops. On one top two rolls of diamond shaped cleats where glued and the other had larger and thinner square shaped cleats. Adding vibration to the two in equal amounts, the square cleated top continued to vibrate 4 to 6 seconds longer than the diamond one consistantly over several experiments. Fine wood dust was spread around the edges of each top and again vibration was applied to the tops. The thin square cleated ones produced a more even and smoother and a bit faster movement of the dust when ****yzed. I would give serious consideration to the thinner and larger square cleats- just thought I would share that for what it's worth.

ohhh well.... now it may be better to use square cleats Lol... I think I will have a drink before we get to the bottom of this issue

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Adrian Levi

... two identical tops ...

Well, before anyone gets excited about the Austrian research, they better read it first and then make up their own mind. Gotta link or is it hearsay?

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

Reasons why I believe diamond cleats are superior:

1) Grain crosses at a 30-40 degree angle, rather than 90 degrees, therefore less tendency to come loose from seasonal wood movement.

2) Much longer reinforcement per cleat; less cleats required.

3) Less stiffening, due to the shape and the way the edges are tapered.

4) Looks really pretty.

Of course square cleats have been used for centuries (as have diamonds), and they work ok. I just personally think diamonds are better, especially if the owner is female. (Private joke for Wayne)

Good point Arnold, I'm going to be replacing the squares cleats for diamond C, any Cleats sizes and spacing in particular work better than others???