The 5-String Double Bass

[David Powell]

If I decide to reduce the radius of the board (increase the arch) there is quite a bit of thickness to work with. Essentially, I'd just be taking it off at the edges a little to match a radius guide.

It just seems that right now I have more space than I really need with G and D so I could rotate the G & D closer to the edge, bring the A to just slightly favoring the treble side of the board and that will probably do it. It's a tricky set up. I might have 3/16, but probably not on the bass side because the string heights go from 6m to 10mm, so right there I'm losing 4mm already. One thing that makes me hesitant to change anything is that the more I practice and the more the bass opens up, the easier the E string starts, so it is tempting to just leave it be and concetrate on technique. It does work, I just have to be particular with certain notes starting. Bow tension, bow speed, where the bow hits the string between the FB and bridge;- all that seems very important. I probably will not change much on this bass until I have a spare.

[Ken Smith]

String spacing should be about 1" to 1 1/16" string-to-string, center-to-center and not in between the strings. This way, the E and A will feel closer than the G and D. Also, is the B is slightly further from the E, this will make the Bass play easier with the Bow as a 4-stringer and have the B reachable for those few moments it is actually needed in orchestral works.

Right now, I am practicing regular 4-string music on my 5er just to get use to playing it G-to-E and I don't think about the B-string being there. On my Bass however, everything just feels big including the body of the Bass. Although this neck was big to begin with if I had just left it as a 4-string, the Bass feels easy enough to play when I dabble with a few solo pieces up the G and D. Not a bad trade off I think.

[David Powell]

Those are some good ideas and guidelines for the bridge arch. The strings are at 1" on centers now currently, so there is a little room to open them a bit. I was looking at Jeff's 3/4 bass and comparing it to the outline of mine and while the two are similar, there are noticeable differences in both the upper and lower bout shape. I was thinking mine was just a slightly larger version of the 3/4, but these are different shapes in the subtleties.

If I'm correct, comparing mine to your five string, yours has a larger lower bout but narrower upper bout and waist. Otherwise I think they are fairly similar in size. It even looks like you might have the same bridge. I'll try to get a measure on the bridge radius so we can compare.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by David Powell

Those are some good ideas and guidelines for the bridge arch. The strings are at 1" on centers now currently, so there is a little room to open them a bit. I was looking at Jeff's 3/4 bass and comparing it to the outline of mine and while the two are similar, there are noticeable differences in both the upper and lower bout shape. I was thinking mine was just a slightly larger version of the 3/4, but these are different shapes in the subtleties.

If I'm correct, comparing mine to your five string, yours has a larger lower bout but narrower upper bout and waist. Otherwise I think they are fairly similar in size. It even looks like you might have the same bridge. I'll try to get a measure on the bridge radius so we can compare.

My Bridge measures 167mm across the feet while my upper F-hole Eyes are 162mm. I think I mentioned all my Bridge arch and spacing specs earlier. The Top is highly arched and extremely strong. If you look at all the measurements of my Bass, maybe you will be able to estimate its cubic inch air space in comparison to your Bass IF you have any interest in doing that. All I know is that the sucker is HUGE..lol

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

My Bridge measures 167mm across the feet while my upper F-hole Eyes are 162mm. I think I mentioned all my Bridge arch and spacing specs earlier. The Top is highly arched and extremely strong. If you look at all the measurements of my Bass, maybe you will be able to estimate its cubic inch air space in comparison to your Bass IF you have any interest in doing that. All I know is that the sucker is HUGE..lol

My bridge feet are right at 168 mm on the outsides. My f's are closer than that. I would guess the two basses are extremely close in cavity size. Just comparing the specs on yours to these.

Upper bout 21", C bout 15.75", lower 27.5", belly from saddle to overstand 45", rib depth 8 3/8" tapers to 7 1/8" after bend in upper bout. As best I can determine, the cavity resonance seems to be "C". The only dimension with much difference is the string length. I think that the 7/8 Christopher I tried out was very close to this size as well.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by David Powell

My bridge feet are right at 168 mm on the outsides. My f's are closer than that. I would guess the two basses are extremely close in cavity size. Just comparing the specs on yours to these.

Upper bout 21", C bout 15.75", lower 27.5", belly from saddle to overstand 45", rib depth 8 3/8" tapers to 7 1/8" after bend in upper bout. As best I can determine, the cavity resonance seems to be "C". The only dimension with much difference is the string length. I think that the 7/8 Christopher I tried out was very close to this size as well.

Yes David, very similar indeed. With my Back 28-29" wide at the bottom it only fits the TKL 4/4 Bag. I doesn't even fit the Bobelock 7/8ths unless I stretch it over the Ribs but the Case will fall apart if continue doing that.

One thing we did not measure is how 'long' each Bout actually is and not just how wide and deep. Our Basses being similar sized do not have a similar string length. Why do you think that is?

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Yes David, very similar indeed. With my Back 28-29" wide at the bottom it only fits the TKL 4/4 Bag. I doesn't even fit the Bobelock 7/8ths unless I stretch it over the Ribs but the Case will fall apart if continue doing that.

One thing we did not measure is how 'long' each Bout actually is and not just how wide and deep. Our Basses being similar sized do not have a similar string length. Why do you think that is?

Bout height / proportion is definitely a part of it. I don't know if this is why. Why is such a complex question when so many things interact, but obviously string length is not one of those things that just exists independently. I suppose in design one could start with string length and then make some decisions around that or go the other way. It's hard to determine whether one isolated parameter is the cause or the effect. My guess is that looking backward at the two instruments that have very similar overall table length, the string length has to match up with the bridge position longitudinally and the heel point has to match the D neck. So once those are located and the projection angle is set, the string length is also. Isn't the bridge position usually at the crest of the arch of the table? So all of these things must be balanced. On the table of my bass there is 23 inches between the bridge and neck overstand and 21 inches below the bridge to the saddle. If the bridge position were up a bit, and the heel point still a D neck, then the string length would drop as well. So your bridge is probably closer to the center longitudinally than mine is. I think the relationship could be mathematically described. If one has the length from the bridge top to the D at the neck heel, then the mensur will be 1.5 x that distance.

There was a 4/4 5 string Romanian bass that I looked at the specifications of when I was shopping for a 5-string that had dimensions and mensur very close to my Kremona. It seems to be a common European shop design.

I'll make an admission about the 4-string / 5-string yin yang. The DB was my first 5 string. After playing a 4 string for two years I wanted to try the 5-er orchestra sized DB just to see what those were about dimension wise and in configuration. I figured switching sooner was better. I had played a few 5 string EBG's, but these never really fascinated me that much although I did like the idea. I used to tune my P down to C on the E string and so I had my own way to get low notes, but a 5 string EBG has more to offer than just notes below E. So here I was in my jazz and folk groups with 5 strings on the DB. And I was rewriting all of my parts now based on the new notes that were available as well as new positions. And inevitably this began affecting my playing on the 4-string EBG, because now I am "thinking" in a different mode. So in improv sequences I hit the wrong string more than once! Eventually switching back and forth from 4 string EBG to 5 string DB was just too frustrating. So I upgraded my EBG to two matched 5 stringers, one fretted and one fretless. Now my musical bass line thinking is the same whatever I'm playing. And I want one of those 7 string classical guitars, too. Just kidding, but everything needs a low B now.

In the end it would be best for me to reach the point where a bass is just a bass. But I'm just not there yet. So for now a bass is a 5-string bass. There was a point in my photographic career when a camera became a box with apertures and shutter speeds, nothing more. At that point my eye superseded the equipment at a fundamental level. The equipment became a proxy for the eye. Any camera would work. When basses become "boxes with low pitched strings" and my ear writes the same line regardless of which box, then I will understand bass lines as fundamentally as I do photographs. After a few more years on the 5 stringers I might start switching back to 4 or something else. I don't think in any case that I am headed for more than 6. For me the 5 string is showing me a lot of relationships that exist only in a couple of instances on a 4 string instrument. So in a way, it will inevitably change my approach to 4 string playing as well.

[Jeff Tranauskas]

David,
That is a good looking instrument!
I am happy with mine especially since it has been touched by Ken himself!
I will post the dimensions of my bass for comparison.
Also, my bridge is adjustable.
All work performed on this bass has been by Harold Golden, Philadelphia.
I have recently added wooden tuning pegs for a more elegant look at the scroll.

[Ken Smith]

Last night after not using it since about December of 2005, I played my 5er in concert. I only had a couple of written notes (D) that were below E so I added a few here and there just to get some use out of it. We were playing in a huge Park with all the strings and woodwinds on the grass so I doubt anyone heard much of my low notes if any Bass directly at all. It was just two of us in the section for this last Pops concert series of 3 venues so some low note improv was not much of an issue.

I did on occasion have to 'fish around' to make sure I was on the right string and the A was in the center and a bit confusing. The G was fine and the E position not bad. It was mostly the A and also the D when moving from the lower strings that were slightly confusing. Still, it was nice to have a concert where I could test the waters for the Fall season with putting the 5er back in my personal inventory.

Anyone else have any confessions to make concerning fumbling with that extra string? Paul? Dave? ... Don't be shy now. I promise not to tell anyone if you so desire..lol

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Jeff Tranauskas

David,
That is a good looking instrument!
I am happy with mine especially since it has been touched by Ken himself!
I will post the dimensions of my bass for comparison.
Also, my bridge is adjustable.
All work performed on this bass has been by Harold Golden, Philadelphia.
I have recently added wooden tuning pegs for a more elegant look at the scroll.

I was a little frustrated with the poor color rendition of the photos. My bass actually appears much darker and not nearly so red as in the photo, more like in the photo of yours. I just got this digital camera and sometimes the color is very surprising, even after tweaking the white balance. The pine floor of the room is similarly overly red, so I am thinking for this camera with these lights, finished wood tends toward red.

Film with outdoor lighting I'm thinking would probably give truer color. Still the photo shows the outline and design nicely. I saw one of the 3/4 ones like yours before I ordered mine. It was a 2002 model. It's a very pleasing and plain modern gamba similar to German shop basses.